Option for a second hybrid battery

[MakinDoForNow]

Maybe mines broke but it's brand new so I doubt it. I've noted the battery cooling system does not actively cool until 110'F internal battery temperature.

Ford says the HV battery can tolerate paint curing booths up to 140'F. "Anything hotter and the HV battery needs to be removed."

Via 30 second online search Looking at a GENERAL BMS for this type (not the one specifically in the Maverick) the BMS is set to turn off the battery if temperature exceeds 65'C (149'F) and turn the device back on after cooling to 45'C (113'F).

Thermal runaway (aka "fire") begins at 195'C (383'F).

Just some baseline info.
I also know electric drag racers HEAT their batteries before a race. I'm 100% sure this shortens life; but hey, gives you more performance in the short term.

So I guess in AZ you are saying you want two batteries so you can sit in the car and run the Air Conditioning twice as long between engine starts?

I read university study that lithium crystalline structure in the battery will start to deteriorate at 178° (soften up like jello) and at or above that temp the lithium atoms could start to migrate and possibly clump together forming an internal point harder to cool and easier to heat when charging/discharging. So in order to protect themselves and their lab from thermal runaway ceased heating the batteries at 150° the hotter the batteries got during their testing the more amperage charge or discharge was possible. They were then going to look further into adding impurities to possibly stabilize the internal structure at a higher temp. Do not remember exactly but at 150° the charge amps could be over 2.5 times that of a non liquid cooled battery. As to a larger battery or two batteries the Regen storage is between 40-70% of battery capacity so doubling battery capacity could allow more safe Regen storage due to less charge density of amperage. I suspect that AWD and tow package in hybrid would have required the second battery which could not be obtained for at least the 2022 model year.

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[GPSMan]

Yep. All that is true.
Ford says the batteries can tolerate 140'F. They didn't say it was "healthy" for them. Which is why I said heat (to a point) was better for output, at the expense of longevity.

 

[GPSMan]

Shay's video (always entertaining) was 75% correct and 25% wrong.

1) Heat = you running the air conditioning using the HV battery power for cooling and not driving down the road which lowers MPG. CORRECT

This is the #1 factor lowering MPG and is one you have control of.


2) Heat = the battery needs to run a cooling pump to cool itself, using up some battery power lowering MPG. CORRECT.

You do not have control of this, and I have observed this pump not coming on until 110'F (battery temp, not air temp.)

3) Heat = The engine needs to run an electric water pump to cool the engine just like any car because there is no belt driven pump. CORRECT. BUT I think this is going to run on every single drive more than 10 minutes long. Winter and summer.

4) Batteries perform worse in the heat. "Even your cell phone drains faster in the heat." FALSE - and the video could/should be corrected.

Batteries perform BETTER in the heat. Always. Up to their degradation limits which are quite hot.

Capacity, or Amp Hours (Ah) are what we are mostly talking about in this thread.

At 40'C you will have about twice as much battery power as you will at -20'C. Not a lot of us drive around at -20'C.

But you will have about 25% more battery power at 40'C (105'F) than 10'C (50'F).

Also deceptive was his "Winter" was 80'F. You all living north of Texas are going to hate the MPG loss in actual winter.

I'm sure you'll agree, taken in context, WINTER is the real foe to MPG and summer is your friend.

 

[2022 pushed behind 2023's]

I've long pointed out that 3-4 kwh battery would be huge for those of us living in hills/mountains/rolling hills. and if Ford made this a mild plug in battery those living in cities might see most of their commutes in EV only mode (anything less than 3 miles of driving).

The EV motor is "rated" far more than the ommph we get out of it. I suspect this is because of its use on the ECVT side and because the battery is too small to give the amps up in EV only mode. Which 3-4kwh would remidy.

A shame MTC decided to make all my prior post hidden from everyones views. For me this is about saving fuel, going from 40ish MPG to well over 60mpg for three times the battery is huge in using less fossil fuels, and some of us (me) would rarely need petrol at all for the increase that battery would give us.

 

[MostlySafeBear]

I've long pointed out that 3-4 kwh battery would be huge for those of us living in hills/mountains/rolling hills. and if Ford made this a mild plug in battery those living in cities might see most of their commutes in EV only mode (anything less than 3 miles of driving).

The EV motor is "rated" far more than the ommph we get out of it. I suspect this is because of its use on the ECVT side and because the battery is too small to give the amps up in EV only mode. Which 3-4kwh would remidy.

A shame MTC decided to make all my prior post hidden from everyones views. For me this is about saving fuel, going from 40ish MPG to well over 60mpg for three times the battery is huge in using less fossil fuels, and some of us (me) would rarely need petrol at all for the increase that battery would give us.

Your posts aren't hidden, it's just that no one wants to listen to you bellyache about how Ford should make the batteries bigger when one of the primary constraints for hybrid Mavericks has been getting enough materials to make even one regular size (~1.1 KWh) battery.

To do as you say would make hybrid Mavericks even rarer, and people would wait even longer for delivery, up from the year minimum that people are already waiting.

I'm sure Ford has many upgrades for various models in the tank so to speak, but supply chain issues have scuttled many things.

 

[2022 pushed behind 2023's]

Your posts aren't hidden, it's just that no one wants to listen to you bellyache about how Ford should make the batteries bigger when one of the primary constraints for hybrid Mavericks has been getting enough materials to make even one regular size (~1.1 KWh) battery.

To do as you say would make hybrid Mavericks even rarer, and people would wait even longer for delivery, up from the year minimum that people are already waiting.

I'm sure Ford has many upgrades for various models in the tank so to speak, but supply chain issues have scuttled many things.

Other than your post being totally wrong your 100% right.

If those constraints were real why would Ford cancel my2022 orders due to them and replace them with even more constrained orders? to have less production?

If my post (other account) were NOT hidden I'd see them on this account (can't). Or from even a bare naked (no account) view (can't again see them). But if I check from that account, there visable!

I don't doubt larger batteries equal more materials. But Ford chose this size of battery based off the escape (carrier over prior engineering to keep the price lower). But if this was a big constraint how are they building MachE's and Lightnings? This was about money more than constraints (by far). Ford could build 100 Maverick HV batteries to ONE lightning battery. But if they build 4kwh Maverick builds that got 60+ mpg and most of the time would need NO gas then how many lightnings would they sell? Not many. Even better if they gave us a real plug in hybrid Maverick that was awd, you'd barely sell any lightnings and probably NO MachE's.

Factually your 100% wrong.

Reality is their are hybrid AWD vehicles out there (not Ford) that if you compare a apples to apples price point their on the same price point of a Maverick (maybe even cheaper). But their just not trucks (SUV's ya know). So the Maverick isn't even really a cheaper vehicle to justify the cheap build quality, its just more useful for most people (I'd much rather own a truck than a suv).

I really should give up trying to help people see reality, they will believe a potato is a tomato if they want.

 

[MostlySafeBear]

Other than your post being totally wrong your 100% right.

If those constraints were real why would Ford cancel my2022 orders due to them and replace them with even more constrained orders? to have less production?

If my post (other account) were NOT hidden I'd see them on this account (can't). Or from even a bare naked (no account) view (can't again see them). But if I check from that account, there visable!

I don't doubt larger batteries equal more materials. But Ford chose this size of battery based off the escape (carrier over prior engineering to keep the price lower). But if this was a big constraint how are they building MachE's and Lightnings? This was about money more than constraints (by far). Ford could build 100 Maverick HV batteries to ONE lightning battery. But if they build 4kwh Maverick builds that got 60+ mpg and most of the time would need NO gas then how many lightnings would they sell? Not many. Even better if they gave us a real plug in hybrid Maverick that was awd, you'd barely sell any lightnings and probably NO MachE's.

Factually your 100% wrong.

Reality is their are hybrid AWD vehicles out there (not Ford) that if you compare a apples to apples price point their on the same price point of a Maverick (maybe even cheaper). But their just not trucks (SUV's ya know). So the Maverick isn't even really a cheaper vehicle to justify the cheap build quality, its just more useful for most people (I'd much rather own a truck than a suv).

I really should give up trying to help people see reality, they will believe a potato is a tomato if they want.

I'm sorry I can't hear you over the sound of your witching. Try actually being helpful instead of blaming the forum like a conspiracy.

 

[Delzona]

The problem with your post is, not taking into consideration of where others live. I live in PHX, you know "Valley Of the Sun" we use the AC a lot, which eats into your MPG, and also eats into battery performance.

Everyone lives in different terrain too, hilly, higher altitude last but not least driving styles. Not everyone want to drive like Grandma....

That's so true about where you live! Now that constant A/C season is over I'm hoping to see a big bump in MPG!

 

[MakinDoForNow]

Yep. All that is true.
Ford says the batteries can tolerate 140'F. They didn't say it was "healthy" for them. Which is why I said heat (to a point) was better for output, at the expense of longevity.

I take fords statement that battery can tolerate 140° is the temp which will allow their warranty time. If they said 150° they would have quoted a shorter warranty period. Perhaps when buying a used hybrid vehicle we should ask to see the history of battery temps or at least the max experienced battery temp.

 

[GPSMan]

While interesting I think that is entirely impractical. No different than asking "what's the max RPM you had this engine up to".

 

[MakinDoForNow]

While interesting I think that is entirely impractical. No different than asking "what's the max RPM you had this engine up to".

I read somewhere maybe in manual that in high heat possibly with low coolant the engine will run on two cylinders to limit heat buildup. In all your testing have you noticed if ice is ran at any other time on two cylinders? Maybe when just charging HVB while in park. My hybrid XLT LUX made in Sept idle sounds much different than my hybrid lariat first edition made in Jan? Maybe saving gas when battery temp is lower or when charge current needs to be less. In park flooring the pedal results in what sounds to be a faster idle?
Maybe they are running on all 4 and are just injecting enough fuel to produce the needed horsepower to produce the needed amperage?

 

[GPSMan]

I don't currently know of a way to monitor alternate cylinders firing.

But I do know that engine spins with zero cylinders firing when you need engine braking descending a long grade. Engine will spin ~4000 RPM but MPG will be 9999 and gross horsepower made will be 0.00.

A different sound during idling can come from idling under load (aka charging) or idling without load (aka just idling for the sake of warming up)

 

[MakinDoForNow]

I don't currently know of a way to monitor alternate cylinders firing.

But I do know that engine spins with zero cylinders firing when you need engine braking descending a long grade. Engine will spin ~4000 RPM but MPG will be 9999 and gross horsepower made will be 0.00.

A different sound during idling can come from idling under load (aka charging) or idling without load (aka just idling for the sake of warming up)

I am going with idle to warm up with enough current to furnish 12v bus and what ever, if any, current to charge HVB at about (just guessing) 65°F battery temp as it had been sitting in garage all night.

 

[Eagle11]

That's so true about where you live! Now that constant A/C season is over I'm hoping to see a big bump in MPG!

Yes, I'm averaging 57 MPG; I'm at 680 miles with 100 miles left. I'll make the 700 club, even the 750 club. I haven't used the AC in about a month.

 

[Socalrob]

Just a point of reference on battery size, I bought my survey crew an F150 powerboost crew cab. Basically an F150 hybrid Maverick. It works great, has been getting 23mpg around town fully loaded. It has a 1.5kw battery, which given the trucks weight, is about equal to a hybrid Maverick at 1.1kw.

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