Hybrid AWD technology?

[inline_five]

Weren't all those things necessary on the EB to tow 4k? Could the fwd version do it?

No the ecoboost FWD could not add 4k. Guessing it was a traction issue per Ford.

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[inline_five]

Maybe you will be surprised to hear:
I called Dell tech support recently.
I was worried my laptop was overheating.
Dell said "normal" CPU chip surface temperature is 212°F. (100°C)

With 480 VAC industrial motors, 310°F (155°C) is considered acceptable.

Acceptable coil temperatures for the Maverick are about the same as other industrial motors. I read in an Escape Hybrid Manual years ago, they get a light at 265°F and a warning and power reduction at 285°F. I forget what evokes a mandatory shut down. But for self-preservation it will shut down shy of doing permanent harm.

I don't know the precise limits for the Maverick, but it's a robust system.

So at those temps looks like limiting factor is ULV fluid then.

This is all interesting. I still probably won't do it but it's nice to hear from you, who does and has. Hopefully no long term damage is occurring.

Are you planning on changing out the fluid more often with all the towing you're doing? Also would be interesting if you added an additional cooler to see effects on the fluid/gen temps.

 

[Automate]

So at those temps looks like limiting factor is ULV fluid then.

This is all interesting. I still probably won't do it but it's nice to hear from you, who does and has. Hopefully no long term damage is occurring.

Are you planning on changing out the fluid more often with all the towing you're doing? Also would be interesting if you added an additional cooler to see effects on the fluid/gen temps.

The motors in the eCVT hybrid are quite a bit different from industrial three phase motors. Industrial motors are normally air cooled whereas the hybrid's motors are cooled by transmission fluid. 115 C ( 240 F) is the temperature that transmission fluid might begin to break down so it should be kept below that.

 

[The Real Maverick]

The motors in the eCVT hybrid are quite a bit different from industrial three phase motors. Industrial motors are normally air cooled whereas the hybrid's motors are cooled by transmission fluid. 115 C ( 240 F) is the temperature that transmission fluid might begin to break down so it should be kept below that.

Right.

But just like your engine....
There can be and will be metal temperatures hotter than the fluid.
The two are not necessarily at homeostasis.

In fact, when I scan "transmission temperature" I am going to assume (maybe falsely but it makes sense) I am scanning fluid temperature.

This reading is usually 145°F.
This reading was 155°F at the same time my generator coil was 250°F.

It's not a 1:1. For example the generator is small, and has low thermal capacity. The cooling loop is large, and has a large thermal capacity. The cooling loop is the conveyor belt pulling heat away.

So it makes sense:
100°F rise in generator temp = 10°F rise in coolant temp.

Further supporting evidence is: the generator will cool 50°F in 2 minutes when you take load off of it. Strong evidence the coolant is cool, and working well.

The ScanGauge PID to watch is Generator Coil Temp.

You can watch Motor Coil Temp. As well but I've seen less dramatic swings on that one.

I'd be curious to see what others see.

 

[Automate]

Right.

But just like your engine....
There can be and will be metal temperatures hotter than the fluid.
The two are not necessarily at homeostasis.

In fact, when I scan "transmission temperature" I am going to assume (maybe falsely but it makes sense) I am scanning fluid temperature.

This reading is usually 145°F.
This reading was 155°F at the same time my generator coil was 250°F.

It's not a 1:1. For example the generator is small, and has low thermal capacity. The cooling loop is large, and has a large thermal capacity. The cooling loop is the conveyor belt pulling heat away.

So it makes sense:
100°F rise in generator temp = 10°F rise in coolant temp.

Further supporting evidence is: the generator will cool 50°F in 2 minutes when you take load off of it. Strong evidence the coolant is cool, and working well.

The ScanGauge PID to watch is Generator Coil Temp.

You can watch Motor Coil Temp. As well but I've seen less dramatic swings on that one.

I'd be curious to see what others see.

Yes, it would be interesting to know how the fluid is circulated inside the eCVT. It is possible some of the fluid touches the motor/generator and heats up to near its temperature but then gets mixed with other cooler fluid inside the eCVT before it gets to the transmission temperature sensor and on to the external fluid coolor.

It seems additional eCVT fluid cooling is included in the 4K hybrid.

 

[The Real Maverick]

It seems additional eCVT fluid cooling is included in the 4K hybrid.

I've been thinking about this.
This could be as simple as using a slightly larger motor/electronics cooling pump, or, it may be accomplished by running the previous pump at higher speeds.

The ability for the radiator to dissipate all the heat exists in the 2022 FWD Hybrid. Conveying the heat away from the generator, I found, was the weakest link. Maybe the 2025 has larger ports or more surface area. That would require a lot of engineering and retooling.
The 2022 was so close to being ready for 4k tow, the solution may be as easy as run the pump faster.

 

[MarkLally]

To add, anyone know how the new hybrid is magically able to tow 4000 pounds? The actual total power has not changed at all (same drive train/engine) and adding AWD doesn't increase power available. There are some minor suspension changes in the rear, but outside that, it looks like total power available wasn't the stopping block that limits the 22-24 hybrids to 2k.

People today are so horsepower spoiled. A F250 in 1980 with a 351 CID (5.8L) engine had 158 HP.

 

[colinl]

People today are so horsepower spoiled. A F250 in 1980 with a 351 CID (5.8L) engine had 158 HP.

and? national speed limit was 55 in 1980 so no one was really talking about trying to pull 4,000 pounds at 65-70+ like frequently happens these days.

 

[inline_five]

People today are so horsepower spoiled. A F250 in 1980 with a 351 CID (5.8L) engine had 158 HP.

What was the gearing? You could probably tow 10,000 lbs with 50 hp if the gearing was low.

So hp vs trailer weight isn't the only factor.

 

[MarkLally]

and? national speed limit was 55 in 1980 so no one was really talking about trying to pull 4,000 pounds at 65-70+ like frequently happens these days.

Your 1980s must have been in a different universe than mine. I was a Ford mechanic in the 80s and 90s and my recollections was that we were just as obsessed with speed and power as we are today. I remember HD dump trucks in the 210-285HP range.

 

[MarkLally]

What was the gearing? You could probably tow 10,000 lbs with 50 hp if the gearing was low.

So hp vs trailer weight isn't the only factor.

The gearing advantage is a modern thing for sure, you were lucky to have 4 forward gears in those days, which would dictate a higher final drive (rear end) ratio you can get away with today.

 

[huunvubu]

Yes, it would be interesting to know how the fluid is circulated inside the eCVT. It is possible some of the fluid touches the motor/generator and heats up to near its temperature but then gets mixed with other cooler fluid inside the eCVT before it gets to the transmission temperature sensor and on to the external fluid coolor.

It seems additional eCVT fluid cooling is included in the 4K hybrid.

Here you go. This is on the HF35 but the HF45 should be similar.

This shows that the stators of the motor/generator are cooled by the circulated fluid in the eCVT:

 

[colinl]

Your 1980s must have been in a different universe than mine. I was a Ford mechanic in the 80s and 90s and my recollections was that we were just as obsessed with speed and power as we are today. I remember HD dump trucks in the 210-285HP range.

how does that have the slightest thing to do with the comment I was responding to? someone said the 1980 f250 5.8 had 158hp. I said we didn't tow at 70+ mph in 1980.

you're still in another universe.

 

[Darnon]

how does that have the slightest thing to do with the comment I was responding to? someone said the 1980 f250 5.8 had 158hp. I said we didn't tow at 70+ mph in 1980.

you're still in another universe.

And in 2005, 10 years after the national speed limit was repealed and many states had reverted to speed limits of 70-75+ mph, the Ford F-150 4.6L made a whopping 231 hp and yet still was rated to tow up to almost 7000 lbs. Even the 202 hp V6 managed to rate 5700 lbs.

 

[23grayXLT84]

Anyone know if the new HF55 transmission is exclusive to AWD, or are all 25+ maverick hybrids getting it.

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