Would you buy an EV maverick for 25-30k?

[OneAlienBoi]

Ford claimed they lost $36k on every EV they sold last quarter... how in the world do you think they will produce a low cost EV when they are losing money on high dollar EVs? This is definitely a I will believe it when I see it kinda thing.

By Ford's own admission, those losses are mostly due to their first generation EVs being way more complex than they needed to be. Way too much wiring, fasteners, requiring too much labor to build etc.

Ford said these new dedicated ground up EV platforms will have a few miles less wiring, less fasteners, easier and more cost efficient to manufacturer, with more shared components.

Factor in the fact that with Ford's first gen EVs, they also had to build all new factories, and pour a ton of resources into learning how to make EVs. The most expensive portion of making a product is usually when you're having to learn how to do something for the first time that you've never done before. New factories, new platforms, higher R and D expenses. All of those things lead to higher expenses, and as such, losses for years. Virtually every business big or small is in the red at first as they recoup their investment.

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[tom_tucker]

Car enthusiasts and people who want sensible, reliable commuter vehicles, those are additional demographics for hybrid and EV buyers. EVs are perfect as daily A to B vehicles, very low costs of ownership, refined, last basically forever, and yes, that includes the batteries. They're what mainstream consumers want. The issue is many mainstream consumers are misinformed about evs, same goes for hybrids.

Not only are EVs and hybrids good for casual buyers, they're great for car obsessed enthusiasts like myself. EVs are how you make normal commuter cars fun to drive. Great low end acceleration, decent handling with a little body roll.

There are a lot of people who want EVs. Just not a 90k massive EV truck. An EV small crossover, hatchback, or truck for daily trips to keep commuting cheap, and a V8 powered muscle car for weekend fun would be a dream two car garage for me.

This sounds like a chatGPT response. Casual car buyers live in apartment buildings. They don't want BEVs because they can't charge them at home. Even the liberal media admits demand is low for EVs.

Electric companies and unions are in bed with the Dems. That's what this is about. They want to make more money selling chargers then jack up the electric rates once they force the switch. I get these emails everyday. EV Cartel I'll call it.

Fight back with your dollar and vote and if that don't work...

 

[SLINGSHOT]

I saw 109 MPG today on my 2023 Lariat Lux hybrid. Well . . yeah, it was less than 2 miles and when the ICE kicked in, it fell like a rock. But It was fun to watch.
Think I'll stick with my 2.5 liter "portable generator".

 

[OneAlienBoi]

This sounds like a chatGPT response. Casual car buyers live in apartment buildings. They don't want BEVs because they can't charge them at home. Even the liberal media admits demand is low for EVs.

Electric companies and unions are in bed with the Dems. That's what this is about. They want to make more money selling chargers then jack up the electric rates once they force the switch. I get these emails everyday. EV Cartel I'll call it.

Fight back with your dollar and vote and if that don't work...

Let's not go down the political rabbit hole anymore than we have to. My political beliefs are whatever they need to be in the moment to connect with my in-person audience. If I have to play the part of the liberal, I do, if I have to pretend to be conservative to make someone happy, I do. It's all about faking it, faking your beliefs and emotions to get what you want. At my core, I'm politically and religiously neutral more or less. I view both extremes to be quite annoying if I'm being honest.

Most data supports this idea that EVs appeal to people on both sides of the aisle. There was a recent report that said based off registration and insurance data, it seems as though more conservatives own EVs than liberals. Not surprising considering I live in Utah, the conservative capital of the world, and you see EVs here on a daily basis. I see Rivians and vw EVs at least once a week. Toyota and Subaru EVs every few weeks, mach-es and lightnings every few days, and model 3s and Ys every day. I've also seen a few hummer EVs out here.

 

[WesM]

By Ford's own admission, those losses are mostly due to their first generation EVs being way more complex than they needed to be. Way too much wiring, fasteners, requiring too much labor to build etc.

Ford said these new dedicated ground up EV platforms will have a few miles less wiring, less fasteners, easier and more cost efficient to manufacturer, with more shared components.

Factor in the fact that with Ford's first gen EVs, they also had to build all new factories, and pour a ton of resources into learning how to make EVs. The most expensive portion of making a product is usually when you're having to learn how to do something for the first time that you've never done before. New factories, new platforms, higher R and D expenses. All of those things lead to higher expenses, and as such, losses for years. Virtually every business big or small is in the red at first as they recoup their investment.

I get that you are all enthusiastic about this and thats cool. but the fact still remains that EV manufacturers who have been in the game way longer then ford are saying its pretty close to impossible at the current state of EV tech to produce a EV under $30k with reasonable range.

Its the ford CEO's job to sound optimistic and push his companies future. But when realism strikes, things like the $20k Maverick disappear and become closer to a $26k vehicle before tax. The base price of a model 3, or 200 mile range LEAF which has had a lot of its cost amortized out at this point, is still around $38k.

I suspect $35k for a 200 mile range EV (maybe a promotional price of $30k the first year, like they did $20k for the Maverick) is closer to where ford will start its base "budget" EV pricing. After shipping and tax it will be around $40k for the base model. Add in the wall charger and possibly a electrical panel upgrade if you are in a house older then the 1990s and you are pushing $45k or more. Now assuming you qualify for the full tax credit that would put it in the $35-40k price all told for a base model.

 

[Shay]

At the end of the day I find that most people who doubt, hate, or believe EVs or some kind of science experiment generally haven't spent much time driving one. Driving is believing.

Having driven several on the market today myself I am sold not because of the politics or the supposed green aspect, but because they're faster, more fun to drive, and make more financial sense to operate every day than any car I've ever tested.

The thing is when somebody drives one and realizes what it's all about, suddenly all of those things in their head that they thought were making it not a good idea manage to disappear. If you own a home with electricity, guess what you have infrastructure. 200 bucks at Amazon gets you a charger and you're ready to roll.

Yes the buy-in price is expensive today but so we're microwaves, cell phones, and CD players when they first came out. Now they're all practically being given away and the companies making them still make a profit.

And this is coming from an old big block Ford guy who cut my teeth on tire smoking muscle cars from the 60s and 70s. EVs are good and they are the future.

Most haters and doubters want to hate and doubt and they're not willing to open their minds. Let them be where they're at, they'll catch up someday.

 

[surfstar]

Except those that don't want to have anything to do with EV's have to pay for the incentives. People forget the government doesn't make money they just take it from people. Also buyers of a mfg's other vehicles are subsidizing your EV's. Ford loses $35k per EV sold which is covered by F-150 ice sales. So not exactly you do you. Those that want nothing to do with you still have to pay for you in the form of higher taxes and inflated prices on non-EV vehicles.

Good thing we don't subsidize the oil and gas industry!!!

 

[OneAlienBoi]

At the end of the day I find that most people who doubt, hate, or believe EVs or some kind of science experiment generally haven't spent much time driving one. Driving is believing.

Having driven several on the market today myself I am sold not because of the politics or the supposed green aspect, but because they're faster, more fun to drive, and make more financial sense to operate every day than any car I've ever tested.

The thing is when somebody drives one and realizes what it's all about, suddenly all of those things in their head that they thought were making it not a good idea manage to disappear. If you own a home with electricity, guess what you have infrastructure. 200 bucks at Amazon gets you a charger and you're ready to roll.

Yes the buy-in price is expensive today but so we're microwaves, cell phones, and CD players when they first came out. Now they're all practically being given away and the companies making them still make a profit.

And this is coming from an old big block Ford guy who cut my teeth on tire smoking muscle cars from the 60s and 70s. EVs are good and they are the future.

Most haters and doubters want to hate and doubt and they're not willing to open their minds. Let them be where they're at, they'll catch up someday.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I've found that the people who bash EVs and hybrids the most tend to know the least about them. The amount of people who think hybrids are unreliable for instance when most of the data says they're actually the most reliable form of powertrain tells you everything you need to know. People fear what they don't know.

 

[WesM]

At the end of the day I find that most people who doubt, hate, or believe EVs or some kind of science experiment generally haven't spent much time driving one. Driving is believing.

Having driven several on the market today myself I am sold not because of the politics or the supposed green aspect, but because they're faster, more fun to drive, and make more financial sense to operate every day than any car I've ever tested.

The thing is when somebody drives one and realizes what it's all about, suddenly all of those things in their head that they thought were making it not a good idea manage to disappear. If you own a home with electricity, guess what you have infrastructure. 200 bucks at Amazon gets you a charger and you're ready to roll.

Yes the buy-in price is expensive today but so we're microwaves, cell phones, and CD players when they first came out. Now they're all practically being given away and the companies making them still make a profit.

And this is coming from an old big block Ford guy who cut my teeth on tire smoking muscle cars from the 60s and 70s. EVs are good and they are the future.

Most haters and doubters want to hate and doubt and they're not willing to open their minds. Let them be where they're at, they'll catch up someday.

I suspect a lot of the negative reactions are coming from the fact that BEVs are effectively being forced on people. With some states claiming they will ban the sale of ICE vehicles in some years. Any kind of forced cooperation is going to get backlash, its human nature.

One negative of this enforced EV conversion is that the technology is not being given the time it needs to mature before widespread adoption. The effect is that we are getting vehicles on the road with sometimes questionable safety, and fairly unpractical for most needs. This gives the BEVs a bad name. Early adopters are effectively beta testers for EVs right now. On that note, CR has consistently found BEVs to be less reliable on average then their ICE or hybrid counterparts.

People not wanting to be beta testers, does not make them haters.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I've found that the people who bash EVs and hybrids the most tend to know the least about them. The amount of people who think hybrids are unreliable for instance when most of the data says they're actually the most reliable form of powertrain tells you everything you need to know. People fear what they don't know.

Knowing that new products will tend to have more failures, and wanting to avoid that, is certainly not fear. Thats an educated approach that has served many well.

 

[OneAlienBoi]

I suspect a lot of the negative reactions are coming from the fact that BEVs are effectively being effectively forced on people. With some states claiming they will ban the sale of ICE vehicles in some years. Any kind of forced cooperation is going to get backlash, its human nature.

One negative of this enforced EV conversion is that the technology is not being given the time it needs to mature before widespread adoption. The effect is that we are getting vehicles on the road with sometimes questionable safety, and fairly unpractical for most needs. This gives the BEVs a bad name. Early adopters are effectively beta testers for EVs right now. On that note, CR has consistently found BEVs to be less reliable on average then their ICE or hybrid counterparts.

People not wanting to be beta testers, does not make them haters.



Knowing that new products will tend to have more failures, and wanting to avoid that, is certainly not fear. Thats an educated approach that has served many well.

Most of my comments were directed to the idiots who think hybrids are still this new and unproven technology when they've been around for over 20 years in mainstream applications and have been proven to be extremely reliable.

EVs still have some kinks to be worked out. But I've found that their shortcomings tend to be wildly overrated by their detractors. I understand buyers who are open to EVs, but want to wait a few years for the technology to improve, that makes perfect sense to me, it's the boat I'm in.
What doesn't make sense to me is the sizable group of people who openly want to see EVs fail because it doesn't fall into their political agenda. I'm not saying you, I'm saying that's a broader observation I've made about society.

I don't want to see things forced onto people. But I don't like seeing millions of people in this country opposing promising technology due to nonsensical political beliefs.

 

[dalola]

Most of my comments were directed to the idiots who think hybrids are still this new and unproven technology when they've been around for over 20 years in mainstream applications and have been proven to be extremely reliable.

EVs still have some kinks to be worked out. But I've found that their shortcomings tend to be wildly overrated by their detractors. I understand buyers who are open to EVs, but want to wait a few years for the technology to improve, that makes perfect sense to me, it's the boat I'm in.
What doesn't make sense to me is the sizable group of people who openly want to see EVs fail because it doesn't fall into their political agenda. I'm not saying you, I'm saying that's a broader observation I've made about society.

I don't want to see things forced onto people. But I don't like seeing millions of people in this country opposing promising technology due to nonsensical political beliefs.

I personally don't know of anyone who "opposes the promising technology" for ANY reason. Who would oppose promising technology?

What some people oppose, and rightly so, as pointed out by WesM, is the forced (early)adoption of said technology.

If something is clearly superior, it should/will be adopted freely. It is precisely the "nonsensical political beliefs" of those pushing this agenda in the first place.

ICE, hybrid, BEV vehicles should continue to all compete in the free market for sales, with the consumer exercising their choice of what purchase best suites them, shaping the future "naturally".

 

[OneAlienBoi]

I personally don't know of anyone who "opposes the promising technology" for ANY reason. Who would oppose promising technology?

What some people oppose, and rightly so, as pointed out by WesM, is the forced (early)adoption of said technology.

If something is clearly superior, it should/will be adopted freely. It is precisely the "nonsensical political beliefs" of those pushing this agenda in the first place.

ICE, hybrid, BEV vehicles should continue to all compete in the free market for sales, with the consumer exercising their choice of what purchase best suites them, shaping the future "naturally".

I get that, no-one likes having things forced on them. But we have thousands of big and small things forced on us every day. There's always someone trying to sell you on something, a job, an investment, product, diets, alternative lifestyles, a house, religion. Life is nothing but people trying to force their shit onto other people.

I wish it wasn't, I personally despise people trying to convert others to their way of life, I think it's evil to try to govern how other people live. But of all the things to get hung up about, why are more environmentally friendly vehicles the thing that has people so offended? We don't think twice about most of the messages and lifestyles being pushed onto us constantly, but of all the BS people peddle us it's the message of "Let's be more mindful of the planet, and take care of future generations" the thing that pisses people off. I just don't get that.

I don't pretend for a second that EVs are flawless for the environment, lithium and cobalt mines are terrible for the planet. But looking at long term ownership experiences, they're better than ICE in terms of long term impact.

Again, I don't deny they have flaws. I just don't see how these flaws make these products deserving of the unending hatred directed their way when worse things in society get a pass all the time.

 

[bbhaag]

While states like California, New York, and others have laws coming into effect banning sales of ICE vehicles all of them are over a decade OR more from now. These laws also have provisions in place for plug in hybrid vehicle technology.

These laws also only apply to new vehicles sales not used vehicle sales and they don't apply to vehicles purchased out of state.

 

[dalola]

I get that, no-one likes having things forced on them. But we have thousands of big and small things forced on us every day. There's always someone trying to sell you on something, a job, an investment, product, diets, alternative lifestyles, a house, religion. Life is nothing but people trying to force their shit onto other people.

I wish it wasn't, I personally despise people trying to convert others to their way of life, I think it's evil to try to govern how other people live. But of all the things to get hung up about, why are more environmentally friendly vehicles the thing that has people so offended? We don't think twice about most of the messages and lifestyles being pushed onto us constantly, but of all the BS people peddle us it's the message of "Let's be more mindful of the planet, and take care of future generations" the thing that pisses people off. I just don't get that.

I don't pretend for a second that EVs are flawless for the environment, lithium and cobalt mines are terrible for the planet. But looking at long term ownership experiences, they're better than ICE in terms of long term impact.

Again, I don't deny they have flaws. I just don't see how these flaws make these products deserving of the unending hatred directed their way when worse things in society get a pass all the time.

You're missing the point.

With all the "shat" you mention above being pushed on you, from all directions......you still have a CHOICE to take the shat. Or not. You decide.

This is the heart of the matter. CHOICE. ICE is being forced out of the market for political reasons, not consumer choice (preference).

Maybe you prefer BEV, so you're not too bothered by this. Consider the possibility that the next thing to be banned might just be something you actually prefer. Perhaps no more heating your home with natural gas? No more back yard BBQ's? Where does it end?

And no, anything "bad" should never get a pass. Truth needs to start taking center stage.

 

[OneAlienBoi]

You're missing the point.

With all the "shat" you mention above being pushed on you, from all directions......you still have a CHOICE to take the shat. Or not. You decide.

This is the heart of the matter. CHOICE. ICE is being forced out of the market for political reasons, not consumer choice (preference).

Maybe you prefer BEV, so you're not too bothered by this. Consider the possibility that the next thing to be banned might just be something you actually prefer. Perhaps no more heating your home with natural gas? No more back yard BBQ's? Where does it end?

And no, anything "bad" should never get a pass. Truth needs to start taking center stage.

People keep saying they're forcing EVs on us. I don't see a ton of evidence for that argument. For instance, this ICE ban I've heard people mention, it's not a thing, not in the states at least.

I've heard a few states like California proposing banning the sale of new ICE cars in their state, but for now, it just seems like a proposal, one that's unlikely to go through, and even if they, and New York ban the sale of ICE vehicles, you still have 48 other states to buy from.

That's not even including the fact that most of these ICE bans wouldn't ban things like hybrids. So you could still get away with selling mild hybrids like the maverick, which is nearly identical to an ICE only vehicle. So these ICE vehicle bans, really aren't bans with all the ways you could get around them.

I just don't see a ton of evidence that EVs are being aggressively forced onto people, so I don't understand the narrative. There's nothing stopping someone from buying a new gas car now, or 15 years from now at the rate these proposals are going. When I hear we're being forced into something, it means you aren't given a choice. American consumers have the choice to buy whatever they want, right now, and for the foreseeable future.

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