VIDEO: TSB 23-2060 Hybrid Grabby Brake Problems: Not Fixed!

[Eagle11]

Yes, the first tank or two after both service appointments was a little lower by about 2-3 mpg. Personally I attributed it to the fact that other people were driving my truck, perhaps testing and it affected the average. But, now that others are reporting it and this visit I noticed the powertrain operating slightly different, considering other reasons. I'm still on the same tank of fuel as the current service visit so it's hard to know what the outcome is yet.

Interesting take at it, I had mine updated on a Saturday, was at the dealership the entire 2 hours and my truck wasn't taken out for a test drive, but my MPH fell significantly after the update (I was in the mid 50's before, and my overall tank dropped to 45). But now that it's back to the grabby brakes, it has gone back up again( my current tank I'm averaging 59).
Since you got upgrade 2.0 have you noticed a drop in MPG? BTW, have you gotten the airbag taken care of? Earnhart won't do it until they get the parts (makes sense) however, Ford wont ship the parts unless they have a need for them. I think I'm going to take it to Chapman for Upgrade 2.0 and airbag.

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[Eagle11]

I'm not sure if the issue I've had on my 23 is the same. It's only happened twice at low speed when braking, the best way to describe it is if you slammed on you're brakes and the anti lock kicks in if that makes any sense?

That is the grabby brakes.

 

[Shay]

Since you got upgrade 2.0 have you noticed a drop in MPG? BTW, have you gotten the airbag taken care of? Earnhart won't do it until they get the parts (makes sense) however, Ford wont ship the parts unless they have a need for them. I think I'm going to take it to Chapman for Upgrade 2.0 and airbag.

At this moment I am unsure of the MPG as I rarely trust the dash readout, still have about 200 miles left on the same tank it had when it was serviced. It was a full tank when I dropped it off, and I have run almost 400 miles now on it. At this point I'm estimating about 44-45 mpg on the tank which would be a couple less than normal which in the winter/spring without AC is 46-47.

I went to Sanderson Ford in Glendale for my second round and found them to be knowledgeable and straight forward - unlike Camelback Ford which was a unmitigated sh!@show at every touchpoint. Sanderson performed TSB 2059, TSB 2060 and did the airbag recall without questions, excuses or objections.

 

[Grim_Skunk]

the EGR issue also popped on my truck in the meantime and I also had TSB 23-2059 performed. Coincidence? Not sure.

Besides the faulty EGR code, did you have any symptoms of a bad EGR? In colder areas, many of us are having the rough idle issue when the ICE is warming up, which is one of the symptoms of a bad EGR. I mentioned the EGR TSB it to my dealer, but they never replaced the EGR.

 

[Darnon]

Besides the faulty EGR code, did you have any symptoms of a bad EGR? In colder areas, many of us are having the rough idle issue when the ICE is warming up, which is one of the symptoms of a bad EGR. I mentioned the EGR TSB it to my dealer, but they never replaced the EGR.

The EGR code typically isn't really the valve/sensor being bad, but just the accepted output being too stringent resulting in a false positive. The PCM reflash as part of the TSB modifies the allowed sensor range. Of course there is the instruction to test drive to see if the error reoccurs and monitor the values in case there actually is a fault.

 

[GPSMan]

@Shay

I have theory #4.

The Regen to Hydraulic switch over point is set too low.

Other older Ford Hybrids have the hydraulics take over at 6.7 mph.

If you think about it, MOST of your parking lot creep is at under 6.7 mph. Therefore, you'd be on hydraulics the whole time. No transitions to contend with.

I'd like to see Ford change the transition point to a higher speed. By that I mean raise the speed regen goes away. I think the amount of battery charge lost would be trivial. Sure, we'd lose some. But I think it's a small cost to pay for smooth slow speed braking.

Yes, on wet days it is worse and that's laws of physics. Both wet, and surface rust will have less friction, so you get a grab at the moment the water or rust wears off. One hard brake, or one brake in Neutral starting the day solved this issue 100% of the time for me.

As far as MPG changes after update, I can explain that too. The dealer either unplugs the 12 volt system or performs some "master" reset / reboot during or after the brake software update. This also erases the stored fuel-trim values. Those stored fuel-trim values are learned for your exact elevation, climate, gasoline blend, and driving style. It can take 100 miles or more (and more varied the better, if you only drive city, it will only learn city conditions) to relearn all the fuel trims.

Or, by coincidence it was from the air bag recall. They certainly unplugged the 12v to do the air bag recall. This could/would explain the fuel trim getting reset to default also.

 

[wax87]

At this moment I am unsure of the MPG as I rarely trust the dash readout, still have about 200 miles left on the same tank it had when it was serviced. It was a full tank when I dropped it off, and I have run almost 400 miles now on it. At this point I'm estimating about 44-45 mpg on the tank which would be a couple less than normal which in the winter/spring without AC is 46-47.

I went to Sanderson Ford in Glendale for my second round and found them to be knowledgeable and straight forward - unlike Camelback Ford which was a unmitigated sh!@show at every touchpoint. Sanderson performed TSB 2059, TSB 2060 and did the airbag recall without questions, excuses or objections.

Was it Camelback Ford that gave you the Hand wav of dismissal?

 

[Shay]

Was it Camelback Ford that gave you the Hand wav of dismissal?

Yes. Two visits to that place and there is no reason to go back for anything.

 

[georgeb]

@Shay

I have theory #4.

The Regen to Hydraulic switch over point is set too low.

Other older Ford Hybrids have the hydraulics take over at 6.7 mph.

If you think about it, MOST of your parking lot creep is at under 6.7 mph. Therefore, you'd be on hydraulics the whole time. No transitions to contend with.

I'd like to see Ford change the transition point to a higher speed. By that I mean raise the speed regen goes away. I think the amount of battery charge lost would be trivial. Sure, we'd lose some. But I think it's a small cost to pay for smooth slow speed braking.

Yes, on wet days it is worse and that's laws of physics. Both wet, and surface rust will have less friction, so you get a grab at the moment the water or rust wears off. One hard brake, or one brake in Neutral starting the day solved this issue 100% of the time for me.

As far as MPG changes after update, I can explain that too. The dealer either unplugs the 12 volt system or performs some "master" reset / reboot during or after the brake software update. This also erases the stored fuel-trim values. Those stored fuel-trim values are learned for your exact elevation, climate, gasoline blend, and driving style. It can take 100 miles or more (and more varied the better, if you only drive city, it will only learn city conditions) to relearn all the fuel trims.

Or, by coincidence it was from the air bag recall. They certainly unplugged the 12v to do the air bag recall. This could/would explain the fuel trim getting reset to default also.

this dude is smart. he should be making videos in his car work shirt instead of the other guy.

ive also previously posted about the grabby brakes vs rust idea.

part of the mpg difference is the truck relearning your driving behaviors after an ECU flash (it likely wipes those values and resets them). the other lesser could be as suggested - ford raising the engagement threshold.

so maybe the idea is two fold:

1. as the quoted has said - Ford needs to raise the MPH engagement of the hydraulic brakes. they may have done that for the 23 model year - hence the epa mpg difference.

2. it might be in your interests to try difference rotors/pads - ones that may not flash rust as quickly / work better in wet conditions. i know that after i wash my vehicle my brakes pretend to not work for a moment (hence why the hybrid system is freaking out). so maybe a high quality drilled rotor or different pad materials may help.

Ford could also program in a feature that - occasionally - lightly applies the brakes at highway speeds to shave off the film/crap from the rotors (while raining/damp) but that would assume the truck would know to do this (ie a dankness sensor).

and the term "shay" that you're looking for in your video is "resolution" not "bandwidth".

as in "Ford may have used an inexpensive - low resolution sensor that does not report the granularity needed for the smoothest operation". with your mechanical shirt and excellent beard.

 

[Eagle11]

At this moment I am unsure of the MPG as I rarely trust the dash readout, still have about 200 miles left on the same tank it had when it was serviced. It was a full tank when I dropped it off, and I have run almost 400 miles now on it. At this point I'm estimating about 44-45 mpg on the tank which would be a couple less than normal which in the winter/spring without AC is 46-47.

I went to Sanderson Ford in Glendale for my second round and found them to be knowledgeable and straight forward - unlike Camelback Ford which was a unmitigated sh!@show at every touchpoint. Sanderson performed TSB 2059, TSB 2060 and did the airbag recall without questions, excuses or objections.

Bingo on Camelback.
When it comes to MPG, my gauge is about 2 MPG higher than my manual calculation, it's been consistently like that for the 14K miles I have put on the truck. So currently the truck is say, 59.1 on this current tank, so it's really 57, which I'm very happy with. I'm on week 4 of this tank. Now we are getting our first 90-degree day this weekend, the AC will be coming on.

 

[MortyHooper]

Rainy day today here, after many days of sun and the grabby brakes were very prevalent. Someone else mentioned their Jeep, and that’s exactly what I thought of, with my 98 Cherokee if it sat for a bit or on a wet day I had to drag the brakes intentionally to wear off corrosion, otherwise I would skid on my first stop. Unfortunately this is not possible on the maverick, and as such we get embarrassingly sudden stops, with a very distinct transition from regen to disc.

I will be dropping it off soon for the newest TSB, I am curious what this does to the 2023 model and if it impacts my MPG.

I think ford should program it to run only the disc brakes for the first few stops, and see how that goes.

 

[Shay]

2. it might be in your interests to try difference rotors/pads - ones that may not flash rust as quickly / work better in wet conditions. i know that after i wash my vehicle my brakes pretend to not work for a moment (hence why the hybrid system is freaking out). so maybe a high quality drilled rotor or different pad materials may help.

The only issues with blaming surface rust or moisture on discs for causing the issues at hand which Ford has been trying to address with software are these:

1) In dry climates like here in Arizona where we don't have surface rust anywhere on anything virtually ever because of generally low humidity and warm temperatures - the problems still happen. Even if it was rust in the morning, after 8 hours of stop and go driving, the brakes still grab unexpectedly. Further, while it does rain occasionally, I rarely drive in it. The issues happen whether its raining or not.

2) Other Ford vehicles with the same brake discs (part numbers identical in some cases) and same braking system design such as the current Ford Escape HEV and PHEV don't experience the extreme issues that we experience with the Maverick. If this was a garden variety issue of disc pollution, all Ford hybrids would theoretically be plagued with these issues.

and the term "shay" that you're looking for in your video is "resolution" not "bandwidth".

as in "Ford may have used an inexpensive - low resolution sensor that does not report the granularity needed for the smoothest operation". with your mechanical shirt and excellent beard.

Yes. Thank you. Low resolution is the perfect umbrella term - will use it next time

 

[clavicus]

Got my brake TSB update and recall work done a week ago. No change. Still grabby as hell

 

[GPSMan]

So the update does something.

It's subjective if it is half better, 70% better, or 70% the same.

I'm 2000 miles past the update.
The slight improvement seems to have stuck.

It not 100% solved.
But I feel it's stable, and did not "revert back" with time. I notice mild grabby brakes every day. But I've not had any OMG! or Holy $hit! moments since the update.

Verdict: not the ultimate fix, but worth having done if you are at the service department for other reasons.

 

[Lone Star Proud]

My wife and I were in a traffic mess that took 2 1/2 hours to drive 10 miles last Thursday evening. I can't begin to count how many times the brakes grab as we were creeping along during that time. On the other hand, I found the brake assist was just perfect for that situation as opposed to keeping your foot on the brake pedal the whole time.

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