Is the oil dilution theory some BS?

[NoVaJimmy]

You need to have a serious misfire, broken rings, and incredibly worn 800k-mile cylinder or a stuck injector to have any measurable amount of fuel in your oil at all. All of these would cause engine fault codes long before your oil became slightly polluted. So, if you are not seeing the check-engine light, there is no cause for concern whatsoever. You've been reading too much fear mongering from someone who does not understand how any engine built in the last 55 years actually works.

incorrect, I have posted used oil analysis which showed 2.2% fuel dilution after 5k miles which correlated to degraded viscosity and flash point. You really need to understand how direct injection causes higher fuel dilution especially when combined with forced induction. I wish more people were knowledgeable and used lab analysis rather than just using anecdotal "evidence".

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[RobbieAG]

Obviously as with any oil thread, there will be a million different opinions. Each will have to decide for themselves. IMO, turbocharged direct injection engines are more susceptible to oil dilution than naturally aspirated port injected engines. My plan when I get my Maverick is to use full synthetic oil and change it every 5k miles regardless of what the oil condition monitor says.

 

[commadorebob]

Copy-paste: I have used whatever as both oil and filter on vehicles and have never had the engine be the point of failure. My advice on oil changes to maximize engine life: do them.

 

[chuckles]

If you add matter to matter, volume increases. That is chemistry.

I'm sorry, this is not chemistry, this is complete BS.

Go ahead and add equal volumes of [rubbing] alcohol and water. You will see a combined volume DECREASE (while total mass remains constant). There is no disolving anything in this experiment. Just the 'arrangement' of (polar) molecules.

 

[2lbgill]

I've read somewhere that someone's saying you must change your oil every 5k, because the gas will blow past oil ring and dilute the oil.

Sounds terrifying. Ford engineers didn't realize this when they design the engine?

Plus, if you think hard, even if some gas do get into the oil, what will happen?

Gas can dissolve in oil, of course. They are all hydocarbon molecules.

But, gas has a very low evaporation temperature compared to oil. If some gas do get into oil, at the normal engine temperature (which is well above 190 degrees), gas will evaporate. So the minuscule amount of gas mixed in the oil will be gone in a second.

Thats why gasoline is called gas, because it's turning to gas so easily in room temperature, not to mention the high engine operating temperature.

Just some thought.

The gas engine has been around for 150 plus years, I think they have figured it out.

 

[Maverstang]

This oil change discussion and the oil analysis presented omit a key piece of information, specifically how the engine was used.

If you are a normal rational driver then longer oil change intervals are fine and will result in long engine life without wasting oil. However, if you consistently do jack rabbit starts, tow heavy trailers or other “severe service” things, then naturally there will be more dilution because of higher combustion pressures and more blow by. Make a rational decision based on usage, not just some blanket 5k statement.

Note the Maverick oil life monitor is based on loading, not just time or miles. It can request an oil change in as little as 3000 miles under severe service conditions (see manual) or as high as 12,500 miles if driven lightly. It is also time capped at one year. The oil life monitor is smarter than any shade tree mechanic.

Finally, if you have a hybrid then the Atkinson cycle engine is never in the same kind of severe service condition as the EB could be. Only the oil life monitor knows how many hours the engine actually ran, so no reason to do anything other than follow its directions on changing the oil.

 

[Tiger Dude]

It seems like every person who has ever tipped a bottle of oil into an engine considers themselves a tribologist. Add to this the actual mechanics who consider themselves experts in engine wear and we get thousands (if not millions) of opinions on every aspect of the subject. I've never seen an actual engine designer weigh in on these threads.

Only motorcycle riders are worse in this regard - they are experts on everything to do with bikes inclusive of oil.

 

[RichardCranium]

I'm sorry, this is not chemistry, this is complete BS.

Go ahead and add equal volumes of [rubbing] alcohol and water. You will see a combined volume DECREASE (while total mass remains constant). There is no disolving anything in this experiment. Just the 'arrangement' of (polar) molecules.

Let’s let middle school science Bill Nye show us.

As you can see, when the young lady adds the alcohol to the bottle, the initial volume of one cup of water increases.
it is not a 1+1=2 situation because of the arrangement of molecules like you said, but it does increase the initial volume. The volume of water does not go down. For example, if you add something to a cup of water, the volume of the original cup of water is not going to go down.
I never said that adding a cup of water and a cup of sugar would yield 2 cups. “since sugar molecules are smaller than sugar solids, when you dissolve sugar in a liquid, the volume of the sugar decreases and thus does not cause the level of the liquid to rise as much.” I specifically stated that the total volume would be less than the volume of the 2 separate.
So your statement of my explanation is “BS,” is in fact BS.

 

[RichardCranium]

I have posted lab results via a used oil analysis which showed 2.2% fuel dilution which correlates to a degradation of both viscosity and flash point. What you're saying is based on assumption unfortunately rather than science. Also, fuel dilution is very dependent on driving style and driving conditions for each individual. What I do suggest is getting a used oil analysis based on oil in YOUR vehicle to determine if your driving style and conditions causes excess fuel dilution rather than making assumptions.

Thank you for your post and for the analysis. Do you know if there is a dilution percentage at which point the oil is considered worn out? Meaning, at what percent does the oil degrade to the point where it is no longer meeting minimum standards as required by the engines?

EDIT: please ignore, after taking a closer look at your spreadsheet, I see that was already answered.

 

[yamahaSHO]

The oil life monitor is smarter than any shade tree mechanic.

Finally, if you have a hybrid then the Atkinson cycle engine is never in the same kind of severe service condition as the EB could be. Only the oil life monitor knows how many hours the engine actually ran, so no reason to do anything other than follow its directions on changing the oil.

My oil samples say the oil monitor is full of shit.

A cycling hybrid in short trips will also accumulate more moisture vs consistently keeping it running, so oil does see a harsher environment.

That makes it easier to get this:

Let’s let middle school science Bill Nye show us.

As you can see, when the young lady adds the alcohol to the bottle, the initial volume of one cup of water increases.
it is not a 1+1=2 situation because of the arrangement of molecules like you said, but it does increase the initial volume. The volume of water does not go down. For example, if you add something to a cup of water, the volume of the original cup of water is not going to go down.
I never said that adding a cup of water and a cup of sugar would yield 2 cups. “since sugar molecules are smaller than sugar solids, when you dissolve sugar in a liquid, the volume of the sugar decreases and thus does not cause the level of the liquid to rise as much.” I specifically stated that the total volume would be less than the volume of the 2 separate.
So your statement of my explanation is “BS,” is in fact BS.

When we test ethanol by mixing water with it in a tube, the level goes down.
It's not a 50/50 mix of water and gas/ethanol.

Thank you for your post and for the analysis. Do you know if there is a dilution percentage at which point the oil is considered worn out? Meaning, at what percent does the oil degrade to the point where it is no longer meeting minimum standards as required by the engines?

EDIT: please ignore, after taking a closer look at your spreadsheet, I see that was already answered.

A quick and dirty is looking at the flash point. Reference the sample and recommended range in his test data.

 

[cyberdog]

Whether the Oil Dilution becomes an issue will be dependent upon driving styles, look at the CRV 1.5l for instance, where those in warmer climates or those who regularly drove longer to allow the gasoline blow-by to evaporate and burn off, had virtually no detrimental issue, even with the original PCM tune. Those with shorter drives and/or colder climates has a substantial amount of gasoline in the oil, where the the engine dipstick would actually reflect an overfull condition.

Keep in mind the CRV engine is smaller and most likely generates a lot less heat than the EB2.0 engine. Engine tuning in the PCM can also heavily influence the issue, as Honda updated the PCM tunes at least twice, to help prevent or mitigate the issue, and it was an issue on those engines. I'd suspect the EB2.0 would have a lower percentage of problems verses say a 1.3 or 1.5 liter engine. I'd still be warry about going long distances between changes, and lets face it, an oil/filter change is cheap insurance against a costly, time consuming engine failure.

On the other hand, a small amount of gas mixed in might lead to a really clean engine on the inside, as I recall using gasoline to clean engines parts way back when....just saying.

 

[RichardCranium]

When we test ethanol by mixing water with it in a tune, the level goes down.

Are you saying that if you start with a cup of ethanol and add a cup of water, then the combined volume is less than a cup?

 

[yamahaSHO]

Are you saying that if you start with a cup of ethanol and add a cup of water, then the combined volume is less than a cup?

I had already made better clarification prior to your post. Must have taken awhile to post after selecting it as a quote?

 

[RichardCranium]

I had already made better clarification prior to your post. Must have taken awhile to post after selecting it as a quote?

most likely.

At what ratio of ethanol to water would it cause the initial volume to decrease? I would love to see it. I cant find anything that supports.

 

[RichardCranium]

Most corelate with this:


https://sciencedemonstrations.fas.h...are mixed,decrease and a temperature increase.

showing about a 10% decrease in combined volume. But that is an equal parts mix, which you stated is not the case.

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