Upgrading 400W inverter possible?

[atomguy245]

It depends. Is a 6 or 10 amp/hour charger going to provide enough of a recharge for your deep cycle battery? What I was trying to show is that 12V DC chargers are available that will work within the 400watt limitation of the outlet, but you have to determine if the output amperage and # of hours will work in your situation.

HRG

I am sure it would take forever to charge up a decent deep cycle battery, but if it's just in the bed charging as I drive, it wouldn't be a problem for it to take an extended time to finally get the battery charged up. My brain gets all jumbled up thinking about amps volts watts hours etc.

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[WasChops]

I am not well versed in these matters of Volts, Amps etc... would this be a good match to plug into the outlet? ( 12V DC, 120V AC, 20V max battery):

 

[Astropowell]

First, I would echo what others have said about being careful going up. Power = current times voltage. But heat radiated from a wire goes as I^2 R (current squared, times resistance). If you double the current in a wire you will produce ~4x as much heat of the wire. That is why things like hairdryers draw a lot of current.

On a side note, a lot of what I would plug in would work fine. An air pump for a camping mattress is easy (https://realestateke.com/how-many-watts-does-an-air-mattress-pump-use/ - 10-50 watts so easy).

A charger for batteries for your cordless drill should be fine too. My Makita is 18V. A 5 A-hr battery then has 90 Watt-hrs of power. With the regular charger (not the rapid charger) it takes over an hour to charge from drained. That would mean something like 90W. Well under 400W. However, I have read there can be issues due to the shape of the AC output from some 400W inverters (square wave vs sine) that can cause harmonic issues (which causes excessive current draws). So that may depend on the charger and inverter and how the talk to each other.

I am not looking for something to run a table saw, so I think for most of my purposes 400W will be fine!

 

[hcforde]

You can get 800W inverters with 12V socket plugs attached. But, can you use that higher wattage?

The detail on the Duracell inverter says "not through the 12V socket."

Amazon.com: Duracell DRINV800 High Power Inverter 1600 Watt Peak 800W Continuous, 12v DC Input Includes 2 AC Outlets (115V) Plus 2.1 Amp USB (5V) : Automotive

I looked at a couple of others, and they suggested the cutoff should be 150W or 200W.
Amazon.com: Cantonape 700W/1500W(Peak) Car Power Inverter DC 12V to 110V AC Converter with LCD Display Dual AC Outlets Comapct Size and 2A USB Car Charger for Car Home Laptop : Automotive
Amazon.com: IpowerBingo 700W Car Power Inverter Dual AC Outlets and Dual USB Charging Ports DC 12V to 110V AC Car Converter with Digital Display : Automotive

So it looks like a 400W inverter turns into a 150W-200W inverter (for all practical purposes) when you plug it into the 12V socket. Or else you risk blowing the fuse on the socket.

Yeah, as it was explained to me there is a 10 fold difference between DC and AC. So I guess the best thing is to see how the 12V socket is fused and how the integral 400Watt inverter that can be ordered is fused and not exceed the amps of the fusing.

 

[hcforde]

First, I would echo what others have said about being careful going up. Power = current times voltage. But heat radiated from a wire goes as I^2 R (current squared, times resistance). If you double the current in a wire you will produce ~4x as much heat of the wire. That is why things like hairdryers draw a lot of current.

On a side note, a lot of what I would plug in would work fine. An air pump for a camping mattress is easy (https://realestateke.com/how-many-watts-does-an-air-mattress-pump-use/ - 10-50 watts so easy).

A charger for batteries for your cordless drill should be fine too. My Makita is 18V. A 5 A-hr battery then has 90 Watt-hrs of power. With the regular charger (not the rapid charger) it takes over an hour to charge from drained. That would mean something like 90W. Well under 400W. However, I have read there can be issues due to the shape of the AC output from some 400W inverters (square wave vs sine) that can cause harmonic issues (which causes excessive current draws). So that may depend on the charger and inverter and how the talk to each other.

I am not looking for something to run a table saw, so I think for most of my purposes 400W will be fine!

I will be using mine mostly for charging batteries for my Kobalt(Lowes)tools along with mylaptop. There may be an occasion I may want to use it for something else but will have to watch my amp draw.

 

[hcforde]

You can get 800W inverters with 12V socket plugs attached. But, can you use that higher wattage?

The detail on the Duracell inverter says "not through the 12V socket."

Amazon.com: Duracell DRINV800 High Power Inverter 1600 Watt Peak 800W Continuous, 12v DC Input Includes 2 AC Outlets (115V) Plus 2.1 Amp USB (5V) : Automotive

I looked at a couple of others, and they suggested the cutoff should be 150W or 200W.
Amazon.com: Cantonape 700W/1500W(Peak) Car Power Inverter DC 12V to 110V AC Converter with LCD Display Dual AC Outlets Comapct Size and 2A USB Car Charger for Car Home Laptop : Automotive
Amazon.com: IpowerBingo 700W Car Power Inverter Dual AC Outlets and Dual USB Charging Ports DC 12V to 110V AC Car Converter with Digital Display : Automotive

So it looks like a 400W inverter turns into a 150W-200W inverter (for all practical purposes) when you plug it into the 12V socket. Or else you risk blowing the fuse on the socket.

Hey DryHeat,
I found in the manual that the inverter is fused at 60A at location 85 in the fuse box. This was on page 295. In theory if I understand the AC vs DC stuff, 60Amps DC is like 6 amps AC. a 400 watt inverter can run 3.3 amps (3.3Amps*120volts = 400watts). It is basically wired and fused for 600 watts to give room for surge.

CONCERNING THE 12v SOCKET - OWNERS MANUAL P151
WHAT IS THE POWER OUTLET - The power outlet can power devices using a 12 V outlet adapter.

POWER OUTLET PRECAUTIONS
When you switch the vehicle on, you can use the socket to power 12 V appliances with a maximum current rating of 15 A. Do not use the power point over the vehicle capacity of 12 V DC 180 W or a fuse could blow. Do not plug in any device that supplies power to the vehicle through the power points. This could result in damage to vehicle systems. Do not hang any accessory from the accessory plug. Always keep the power point caps closed when not in use. Do not insert objects other than an accessory plug into the power point. To prevent the battery from running out of charge:
• Do not use the power point longer than necessary when the vehicle is off.
• Do not leave devices plugged in overnight or when you park your vehicle for extended periods.

LOCATING THE POWER OUTLET
Power outlets may be in the following locations:
• On the lower instrument panel.
• Inside the center console.
• On the front of the center console.
• On the rear of the center console.
• On the passenger side floor panel.
• 3rd row on the quarter trim panels.

Auxiliary Power Access
The set of wires located in the auxiliary power access makes aftermarket customization easier with a prewired 12V circuit. The circuit is individually fused for 12V connection of electrical accessories.

Can you decipher what I have underlined to see if I understand this correctly?

180 watts / 12 volts = 15 amps DC but surely it can not mean 150 amps AC. Rather it means the capacity is 180 Watts AC. That seems more likely; why would they sell you something with less capacity than they are giving you for "free"!

 

[DryHeat]

In theory if I understand the AC vs DC stuff, 60Amps DC is like 6 amps AC.
* * *
When you switch the vehicle on, you can use the socket to power 12 V appliances with a maximum current rating of 15 A. Do not use the power point over the vehicle capacity of 12 V DC 180 W or a fuse could blow.
* * *
180 watts / 12 volts = 15 amps DC but surely it can not mean 150 amps AC. Rather it means the capacity is 180 Watts AC. That seems more likely; why would they sell you something with less capacity than they are giving you for "free"!

It’s not exactly that “60Amps DC is like 6 amps AC.” It’s more like “60A at 12V is like 6A at 120V” -- both equal 180 watts. The 10-fold difference in amps (with watts held constant) is not caused by AC vs DC, it’s caused by 120V vs 12V.

The basic equation is "amps x volts = watts.”
Looking at the 12V socket with the 15 amp fuse, we get 15A * 12V = 180W.
Looking at the inverter DC wiring to the battery with a 60 amp fuse, we get 60A * 12V = 720W.

So the inverter has a maximum draw of 720W (if you are right about the 60A fuse) and is designed to provide 400W. That’s a lot more than the 12V socket, which can only provide 180V. You get what you pay for.

[This is not my field. If I'm wrong about any of this, someone correct me, please.]

 

[huunvubu]

It’s not exactly that “60Amps DC is like 6 amps AC.” It’s more like “60A at 12V is like 6A at 120V” -- both equal 180 watts. The 10-fold difference in amps (with watts held constant) is not caused by AC vs DC, it’s caused by 120V vs 12V.

[This is not my field. If I'm wrong about any of this, someone correct me, please.]

Power (Watts) equals Volts times Amps.

12 volts times 60 amps is 720 watts.
120 volts times 6 amps is the same 720 watts.

You should never use the maximum amperage that the fuse is rated at. A rule of thumb is use only a maximum of 70% or 42 amps at 12 volts or 4.2 amps at 120 volts.

4.2 amps at 120 volts equals 504 watts.

It looks like Ford is even more conservative and is only using 3.333 amps.

120 volts times 3.33 amps equals 400 watts.

 

[hcforde]

Power (Watts) equals Volts times Amps.

12 volts times 60 amps is 720 watts.
120 volts times 6 amps is the same 720 watts.

You should never use the maximum amperage that the fuse is rated at. A rule of thumb is use only a maximum of 70% or 42 amps at 12 volts or 4.2 amps at 120 volts.

4.2 amps at 120 volts equals 504 watts.

It looks like Ford is even more conservative and is only using 3.333 amps.

120 volts times 3.33 amps equals 400 watts.

Makes sense!!! There is talk here of people wanting to use a blender(joke or not, I do not know). The start-up of this(blender) motor would/could create a surge on the circuit (also say assuming it constantly draws 3 amps). That surge can be absorbed by the circuit head room given by having a 60amp fuse rather than say a 40amp fuse which might be constantly blowing under surge conditions beyond 3.3 amps.

 

[DryHeat]

There is talk here of people wanting to use a blender(joke or not, I do not know).

All these calculations are fun (not really), but lots of appliances (maybe most) list the wattage. We know the socket carries 180W and the wired-in inverter carries 400W, so that's pretty much all we need for normal purposes.

I looked up blenders on Amazon, for example, and clicked on 3 of them. All listed the wattage as part of the description. My TV lists watts on the label on the back. Makes it pretty simple.

 

[Wire4money]

Makes sense!!! There is talk here of people wanting to use a blender(joke or not, I do not know). The start-up of this(blender) motor would/could create a surge on the circuit (also say assuming it constantly draws 3 amps). That surge can be absorbed by the circuit head room given by having a 60amp fuse rather than say a 40amp fuse which might be constantly blowing under surge conditions beyond 3.3 amps.

I don’t know if the 60a is for surge. All these calculations are forgetting a key ingredient. The inverter will not run at 100% efficiency.

 

[hcforde]

I don’t know if the 60a is for surge. All these calculations are forgetting a key ingredient. The inverter will not run at 100% efficiency.

Are you saying inverters are not fused for surge? If not please explain your comment in better detail. Is fusing for a chronic or acute situation?

 

[MaverickTime]

Laptop. That's useful.

Small TV. Useful to some people; not to me. Don't need a TV while camping.

Electric blanket? Nah, compact down comforter or sleeping bag.

Freezer? no
Refrigerator? yes, but I think rugged ones are typically 12V anyway.

Saw a video where the 12v outlet was ised for a Ranger pellet smoker/grill for tailgating. Thought that was a pretty cool use for bed outlet.

 

[Wire4money]

Are you saying inverters are not fused for surge? If not please explain your comment in better detail. Is fusing for a chronic or acute situation?

A motor has a high inrush current. A motor may pull less than the 400w limit while running, but pull 600 or more watts. An inverter can go into protected mode.

 

[BMCGC]

If I had a need for 120V power I would go one of two ways:

1. 2000W gas generator. The gold standard is the Honda at $1100, but there are some really nice units in the sub $500 price range. They are lightweight, portable and easy to use.

2. A hard cover with mounts to install 200w - 400w of solar and a deep cycle battery would probably give me enough juice for camping and keep power tool batteries charged.

I have Porter Cable tools that I use a lot. The batteries last a long time but I bought extras so that I would never have to wait for recharges.

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