Looking better for a PHEV Hybrid Maverick???

[fossil]

Tesla lost billions its first ten years. Just like Ford and GM are gearing up for mass EV batteries and assembly plants.

and by the numbers if investigations on going it might loose a few more. the over rating of range and lying about it might be Tesla's dieselgate.

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[Shay]

Not saying BEVs are not coming but what is legislated can be reversed.

But it's not going to be. Even if it was, the manufacturers have already begun the shift on a global scale. It's a done deal whether you like it or not. Once a sex change operation is underway, there is no changing course.

 

[Mav_RICK]

But it's not going to be. Even if it was, the manufacturers have already begun the shift on a global scale. It's a done deal whether you like it or not. Once a sex change operation is underway, there is no changing course.

Well it’s also true that most sex change operations don’t make a bad idea a good one.

Politicians are great at trying to make bad ideas in to good ones as long as they think there is money in it for them by making us the tax payer pay for it

Im not against EVs but they are not going to be nearly as widely accepted and used as some would have us believe, that is unless the tech is greatly improved.

Question for you though. What do you think is going to happen to electric rates and even availability when and if everyone gets plugged in to these vehicles? I’d really like to hear your thoughts. I watch your videos and I find them to be very informative and professional. In fact I would like to see you do one on this topic.

 

[Mav_RICK]

I searched for recent articles with both of those sources, and without them, couldn't find anything remotely matching your statement. Not saying you're wrong, just couldn't find it.



Didn't find a study from Europe, but found this article. Basically theorizes that people bought PHEVs because they were cheaper after incentives than hybrids or straight ICE vehicles. So if their plan never was to save the planet, why should they care enough to plug in...

Here is something else that I've considered as a possible contributing factor:

My current car is a BEV (which I will retain!, not trade in for the Maverick). Charge time on 240V is less than 7 hours from 10% to 80% (recommended limitations on upper and lower ends). My range is 262 miles on a full battery, or about 225 at 80% (no heat or AC on, though). Now that amount of time is significant, but acceptable from an efficiency standpoint.

But here is something most people don't realize (until after they buy an EV): For some odd reason most PHEV require 3 to 5 hours to charge their battery that only gives them between 20 and 40 miles of all-electric range. I do believe that is if they use 110V, but I could be wrong.

Ok, the reason isn't odd (has to do with the internal charge controller and possibly the type of battery), but the fact that it takes that long to charge may have something to do with people not plugging in.

1) That's a long time to plug in your vehicle for just minor range. Many people don't understand how electricity is measured and used in their house. So of course something that is plugged in that long must be using a lot of electricity. Not true, but I had to explain why it isn't to my mom before she accepted that it's not actually that expensive.
2) You will have to plug in every day that you drove your car to re-charge your battery, which isn't that intuitive when you also still have to go get gas.

I really think in a two vehicle household an EV and Hybrid are the best combo. Single vehicle urban go EV. Rural go hybrid.

I’m not a big fan of PHEV because you really don’t get rid of the ICE engine, they are more complicated and more expensive than hybrid. They are heavier and If not charged their gas mileage is not as good as hybrid. But if you can plug in daily I guess they might be ok especially in a single car household with mostly short daily trips.

 

[Shay]

Question for you though. What do you think is going to happen to electric rates and even availability when and if everyone gets plugged in to these vehicles? I’d really like to hear your thoughts. I watch your videos and I find them to be very informative and professional. In fact I would like to see you do one on this topic.

All I can say is that it will work out. Relax. Everyone said, "where are all them telephone lines going to come from?" when the telephone came. Everyone said, "where are all them gas stations gonna come from?", when the car came. "where are all the cables gonna come from?", when cable TV came. "where are all the cell towers going to come from?", when cell phones came. Getting the point? When there is money in it - and there is, there is always a way.

 

[GPSMan]

Yes.

Power rates may come down.
Economy of scale.

Plus RIGHT NOW there are vastly more electric power charging locations than gasoline refueling locations.

Every single home with electric lights is a charging station RIGHT NOW.

How many homes have a gasoline tank?

If you charge slowly over night while you sleep, you don't even need infrastructure upgrades. You can do it now and power companies can supply you now.

It is difficult for the cross-country traveler though. Fast charging, well isn't fast or convenient. But slow charging is right now. And like the wireless charger pad for your phone, they have wireless charging pads for your car. You won't have to lift a finger. You just need to park in the same stall every night and it will automatically charge. With current homes and current infrastructure (see what I did there) you can recharge 250 miles every time you sleep.

 

[Shay]

Every single home with electric lights is a charging station RIGHT NOW.
Home many homes have a gasoline tank?

Indeed. For $200 or less you can buy a charger that plugs into a dryer outlet (or other 240V outlet) in a garage and immediately most homes become a charging station. I have a townhouse in an urban downtown city and even I have a home charger.

I hear the common complaint, "what if you live in a rural area?". You don't have an electrical box and 220/240 at your barn or on a pole at the side of your mobile home? No? Chargers are cheaper than a month's worth of beer - so is a month worth of charging an EV.

The only area where it's hard still is apartments where people rent. At a point, property managers will see the wisdom and market viability for themselves to add chargers to each parking space at their properties. It's already happening now.

 

[Mav_RICK]

Well I guess it doesn’t hurt to dream big but it’s not going to be our main mode for powering vehicles in this country by 2035 and probably not even 2050, not without dramatic improvements that are not likely. Certainly in certain sectors EVs will dominate much sooner. I will have two new hybrids soon. I’m certain if I get one more vehicle it will be an EV.

 

[Sembazuru]

The only area where it's hard still is apartments where people rent.

Another area where it's hard to roll-out home charging for vehicles is in urban areas with only on-street parking for the residents. It can be hard enough finding a parking spot within a block or two from one's front door some days... Not saying that it is impossible, but will require some infrastructure planning and roll-out.

 

[Waterick]

Unless the mode of production of most of the electricity in the world is changed to not depend mostly on fossil fuels, EVs will ultimately be worse for the environment. Think about it, production and disposal of all those batteries. All the new factories and infrastructure. The need to upgrade of the power grid. Until we have a viable source of electric power not relying on the same dirty generation techniques, going in masse to EV's is putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Kingfish]

Unless the mode of production of most of the electricity in the world is changed to not depend mostly on fossil fuels, EVs will ultimately be worse for the environment. Think about it, production and disposal of all those batteries. All the new factories and infrastructure. The need to upgrade of the power grid. Until we have a viable source of electric power not relying on the same dirty generation techniques, going in masse to EV's is putting the cart before the horse.

Sorry this us so long. Kinda got away from me...

That's not entirely true.

Even with our current power supply and relatively dirty mining processes, EVs produce fewer greenhouse gasses than ICE vehicles over their lifetime. (Disclaimer: there are contradictory studies here, but most lean this way).

There is a payback period. I've seen it range from maybe 6 to 8 or 9 years. So an EV taken out of commission in 4 years probably is a net negative.

Incremental improvements chip away at that payback period. More efficient batteries and cleaner electricity move the needle.

I don't mean to suggest that EVs are ready for 100% adoption. I don't have one and won't until there is a 500 mile range, 10 min charging, and more available public charging stations. But it is fair to say that EVs are a net positive environmentally and getting more so every year.

It's also good to note that EVs promote energy flexibility. When you drive one in WV, you're on abundantly available coal power. Out west it might be hydro or wind. So EVs can run on local fuel sources.

Plus, many power grids can pull from multiple sources. So when solar is cheaper and abundant, they power an EV. When coal is more available, it'll run on that. Compare that to a single source of energy controlled by a few organizations that often collude with each other.

 

[TedTX]

Just want a 70 mile range on battery only. That would be my sweet spot. Can run A/C for many hours camping on battery. Would only take 2 hrs on 120v.
Drove by the ‘parked’ teslas on the distance lot from the stores waiting for a charge away from home. Not going full EV for a long while.
Speaking on legislation, they are funding research on fully EV single person pods for handicap people with disabilities. Fully enclosed self driving. Wish I knew who/what won the first few rounds of contracts, but not a party to those details.

 

[MaverickEVwouldBeNice]

Unless the mode of production of most of the electricity in the world is changed to not depend mostly on fossil fuels, EVs will ultimately be worse for the environment. Think about it, production and disposal of all those batteries. All the new factories and infrastructure. The need to upgrade of the power grid. Until we have a viable source of electric power not relying on the same dirty generation techniques, going in masse to EV's is putting the cart before the horse.

I am very disappointed when I see comments like yours. Someone somewhere came up with that crap, slapped some pseudo science on it to make it look good, put it out, and enough people repeated it until it became "common knowledge". It often contains some truth that many folks recognize, so they assume all of it is valid information.

For example, I just saw some clickbait online talking about the "toxic tire particles" that EVs emit. And you know what, they are not lying about that. Tires are made from toxic materials, and the friction of rolling on the road rubs off small particles with every rotation. The problem is that the statement implies that ICE vehicles don't do the same. How much are you willing to bet that they do?

Yes, EVs are generally heavier than their comparable ICE counterparts, so each EV is responsible for more toxic particles by itself. But considering the low number of EVs in circulation right now, the vast amount of said toxic particles in the environment right now does not come from EV tires.

When you think battery disposal, do you see pictures of some dirty kids in a slum in India or an African country smashing a bin full of Energizer batteries?

Like this one?

That's not how it works with EV batteries. Totally different composition of elements, components, etc. Much easier to recycle and capture the different materials they are made up of.

Well over 90% of the battery components are truly recyclable, with the materials NOT degrading significantly despite repeated cycles of re-use. There are several companies currently ramping up their capacities to increase EV battery recycling. In the US, not overseas.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/

 

[Waterick]

I am very disappointed when I see comments like yours. Someone somewhere came up with that crap, slapped some pseudo science on it to make it look good, put it out, and enough people repeated it until it became "common knowledge". It often contains some truth that many folks recognize, so they assume all of it is valid information.

For example, I just saw some clickbait online talking about the "toxic tire particles" that EVs emit. And you know what, they are not lying about that. Tires are made from toxic materials, and the friction of rolling on the road rubs off small particles with every rotation. The problem is that the statement implies that ICE vehicles don't do the same. How much are you willing to bet that they do?

Yes, EVs are generally heavier than their comparable ICE counterparts, so each EV is responsible for more toxic particles by itself. But considering the low number of EVs in circulation right now, the vast amount of said toxic particles in the environment right now does not come from EV tires.

When you think battery disposal, do you see pictures of some dirty kids in a slum in India or an African country smashing a bin full of Energizer batteries?

Like this one?

That's not how it works with EV batteries. Totally different composition of elements, components, etc. Much easier to recycle and capture the different materials they are made up of.

Well over 90% of the battery components are truly recyclable, with the materials NOT degrading significantly despite repeated cycles of re-use. There are several companies currently ramping up their capacities to increase EV battery recycling. In the US, not overseas.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/

I am not saying EV's don't have a future here, all I'm really saying is that we're not there yet. Battery technologies good as they are, still need improvement for widespread use. I don't want to be the one in a compact truck in collision with an 8500 pound F-150 Lightning. The batteries need to be lighter. Given how long those batteries last, I don't see recycling being a problem. Those systems have time to be established in the degree necessary. We are already seeing the problems of trying to produce so many batteries so quickly. Not just a shortage of the raw materials, there are not enough manufacturing facilities to meet current (low) demand. In time, those problems will be solved at an environmental price of its own. Infrastructure however, everything from charging stations, home chargers, power grid and more clean energy available to support widespread adaptation is far from being in place at this time. This changeover, wether you believe it or not, will not take place in entirety until all these issues are solved. I foresee at least a decade even with government mandates before this can be even close to happening. To mandate people adopt this technology before it's ready is to invite widespread failure initially and delay it's adaptation.

 

[BuddyS]

"Losses on EVs" are really just the money spend on R&D and the new factories. Ford CEO says every product whether ICE or EV needs to make 8% profit. So Ford isn't spending $200k per unit to build a Mustang Mach E then selling it for only $60k. It's called investing in the future, only the accountants call it a loss.

I suspect that calling the R&D and infrastructure investments "losses" has savvy tax rationale, too. Ford knows what it's doing with those reported numbers.

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