Combined torque that Maverick hybrid will produce?

[mamboman777]

Peak torque is a useless measurement in terms of engine performance. If torque is what "wins races" or allows a vehicle to tow better than my impact would be one of the best engines ever made.

Sustained wheel torque overtime is what matters. This is also called horsepower which is essentially a torque measurement with a time value. Horsepower equals torque times RPM divided by 5252 always. The time figure in the measurement comes from the rotations per minute part of the equation. You can always change how much final torque at the wheels you have via changes in driveline gearing.

In regards to the maverick hybrid drive system you have an electric motor that provides a reasonable amount of power. But both the electric motor and the gas motor are both single speed gear ratios. The electric motor provides most of the power required up to around 35 or so MPH. At that point the gas motor is at a high enough RPM to provide a meaningful amount of torque. Think of it like the electric motor covers power needed for 1st 2nd and 3rd gear and the gas covers 4th and 5th gear. This is an analogy to a traditional 5 speed style transmission.

Here is a video of a Toyota system. Its basically the same just the electric motors on newer hybrid systems like the Ford and newer toyota are not in line but rather in parallel

Seen it...three times.

My question still stands and it's mostly curiosity. Thank you for the reply!

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[FirstOnRaceDay]

a little messy. But the Escape has 200lbft combine. (That’s what this graph is based off of)

this is wheel torque and HP based off of wheel speed NOT rpm. To give you a better idea of what’s going on

also vs Hyundai Santa Cruz

think of these lines as potential maxes. You can have less at a given speed but not more

 

[JASmith]

The electric motor provides most of the power required up to around 35 or so MPH. At that point the gas motor is at a high enough RPM to provide a meaningful amount of torque.

I agree that horsepower is really what matters with a CVT when rolling, but having some low end power is nice for stop and go. Regarding the electric motor providing most of the power until 35mph, if you watch my video that doesn't seem to be the case as it shows how much the electric motor and the gas motor are contributing on the digital display.

When flooring it, the electric and gas motor both contribute briefly, but quickly the electric motor is shut off. The red arrow is pointing to the estimated electric motor contribution and the green to the ICE:

The electric motor contribution doesn't appear to peak until approaching 60mph on the tests:

That behavior happens in all the modes. That's why the theoretical pissing match needs to end and actual first hand experience by just testing them out in the real world needs to happen.

 

[flyjum]

I agree that horsepower is really what matters with a CVT when rolling, but having some low end power is nice for stop and go. Regarding the electric motor providing most of the power until 35mph, if you watch my video that doesn't seem to be the case as it shows how much the electric motor and the gas motor are contributing on the digital display.

When flooring it, the electric and gas motor both contribute briefly, but quickly the electric motor is shut off. The red arrow is pointing to the estimated electric motor contribution and the green to the ICE:

The electric motor contribution doesn't appear to peak until approaching 60mph on the tests:

That behavior happens in all the modes. That's why the theoretical pissing match needs to end and actual first hand experience by just testing them out in the real world needs to happen.

This has to do with how the energy is stored and then used. The gas engine can provide electric power a the same time it helps drives the wheels. I can also decoupler from the drive wheels and use full gas engine power to drive the generator to make more electric power. This is what happens at low speeds and high power demand. The 0 battery but 80 kW image is because the battery is dead or nearly dead and is not giving any power to the electric motor instead all generator power from the gas engine is being diverted to the electric motor. In the second image it shows 29 kW from the battery and 113 from the gas engine. This is because the battery now has some juice from the gas motor charging up the battery a bit. Its also now engaged to drive the wheels because its above 40mph or so.

Essentially its a balance act of 3 drive modes. Electric only which can get power from either regen braking(has nothing to do with the brakes) or from the gas engine charging the battery. Or it can be in a dual operation mode of both the gas and electric motor providing power to the wheels or it can be in gas only mode which all of the power needed to drive the wheels is from the gas engine.

 

[fbov]

… So, truck have good vroom vroom or no good vroom vroom?

Hybrid has only vroom. Gronk want ecoboost for vroom vroom.

I can't beat this.

Watt is a unit of power. Watt-hour is rate of power.

Power is work over time. Power is not energy over time.
...
But energy?! What an oddball.

Watt is a unit of POWER.
Watt-hour is a unit of ENERGY, which is also called Work, defined as Force x Distance

a little messy. But the Escape has 200lbft combine. ...

This chart has been posted before and it has issues. The "2.5H W" data does not include EV, and treats the ICE like a geared transmission (RPM vary with road speed). While the geared drivetrain models are not far off, the Ford hybrid model is not accurate.

... When flooring it, the electric and gas motor both contribute briefly, but quickly the electric motor is shut off. ...
That behavior happens in all the modes.

I see two things you don't mention. SPORT mode, and a nearly dead HVB.

EV will always cut off when HVB charge is low. Your HVB looks incredibly low. No way I can get 80kW out of ICE with 0 EV (top pic). Your mileage is horrendous; how to you get 32 mg at 22 mph!! I can't do that driving 70+ mph in Winter on 10% ethanol.

The combination of power levels shown here never happens in my Escape Hybrid.

 

[JASmith]

I see two things you don't mention. SPORT mode, and a nearly dead HVB.

I mentioned it does the same thing no matter which mode you select, the screenshots are from the video I posted earlier: https://www.mavericktruckclub.com/f...ck-hybrid-will-produce.1568/page-2#post-29814

The battery is contributing, it just cuts out briefly, can you upload a video of a 0-60 run on yours? Here's a popular youtuber reviewing the Escape Hybrid and it does the same thing:


Chris punches it, it gives a brief blip of electric power, cuts electric to zero, and then gives electric again (screenshot from above video, notice accelerating at 15mph 24kw from gas engine yet electric just dropped to 0KW and isn't helping at all):

Electric meter blipped for a second putting down a lot of power, then at 25mph and still accelerating EV plummets down to 8KW while ICE is up to 92KW:

Then heading up to 60, again the EV output climbs to its peak of 28kw while the ICE is contributing 114KW:

So while maybe in theory it makes sense the electric motor would kick in hardest at low speed and then taper off by 60mph, for some reason that the Ford engineers surely understand and get paid the big bucks for it doesn't actually work out that way and in fact is a bit the opposite. The problem with theory is that its very easy to leave out factors that alter the actual implementation that we won't know because we haven't spent months on R&D in a lab with the powertrain.

 

[JASmith]

The gas engine can provide electric power a the same time it helps drives the wheels. I can also decoupler from the drive wheels and use full gas engine power to drive the generator to make more electric power. This is what happens at low speeds and high power demand. The 0 battery but 80 kW image is because the battery is dead or nearly dead and is not giving any power to the electric motor instead all generator power from the gas engine is being diverted to the electric motor. In the second image it shows 29 kW from the battery and 113 from the gas engine. This is because the battery now has some juice from the gas motor charging up the battery a bit. Its also now engaged to drive the wheels because its above 40mph or so.

No clue honestly, but in any case, its certainly complicated and hard to predict what contribution the electric motor will make in the real world.

This is thanks in part to the battery not only being tiny by EV standards (1.1kwh vs say a Tesla's 100kwh battery), but from what I've read it uses only a tiny portion of its potential charge. Only 20% range of its capacity is used, between 40% and 60% of the cells' potential. Keeping it near the 50% range where lithium batteries tend to last forever means that Ford shouldn't have any warranty concerns compared to if the vehicle were able to continuously charge and discharge the battery much higher and deeper, but also means who knows how much juice you have with mixed driving habits at any random moment.

 

[PapaDave]

Max torque of the gas engine and electric motor never happen at the same time, thus their numbers are not cumulative.

Watched your video explaining how the hybrid works. Very helpful, thanks.

 

[FirstOnRaceDay]

I can't beat this.

Watt is a unit of POWER.
Watt-hour is a unit of ENERGY, which is also called Work, defined as Force x Distance


This chart has been posted before and it has issues. The "2.5H W" data does not include EV, and treats the ICE like a geared transmission (RPM vary with road speed). While the geared drivetrain models are not far off, the Ford hybrid model is not accurate.

I see two things you don't mention. SPORT mode, and a nearly dead HVB.

EV will always cut off when HVB charge is low. Your HVB looks incredibly low. No way I can get 80kW out of ICE with 0 EV (top pic). Your mileage is horrendous; how to you get 32 mg at 22 mph!! I can't do that driving 70+ mph in Winter on 10% ethanol.

The combination of power levels shown here never happens in my Escape Hybrid.

The 2.5 hybrid uses a CVT. The output is hard to calculate. But assuming the CVT is “perfect”
The HP will remain flat at “peak” hp.
And the torque slowly diminishes. The gas motor still provides 70% + of total output. The Electric motor only increases the curve at lower speeds.

 

[FirstOnRaceDay]

here’s what it looks like VS RPM. You see the electric motor doesn’t help THAT much

 

[vap0rtranz]

I disagree with this, But I mean this is just nit picky stuff .

Touche. I totally agree it's nit picky, and that's precisely why I mentioned it to you. Why even post a reply attempting to correct @WesM without showing the equations & their definitions? It didn't matter. So your nit picking his attempt to figure this out is why I nit picked on your reply.

Watt-hour is a unit of ENERGY, which is also called Work,

Nope. We aren't going to agree on this. How many physics textbooks will we need to source?

We agree Watt is unit of power. And yet if we add a unit of time to a unit of power, it magically becomes a unit of energy?! Think about that. Wh is a unit rate of power transferred. It is not energy.

In common parlance, say a utility bill, we call a kwh a "rate of energy" but that's just convenience. These physics equations don't bend to the will of the very weak English language.

@Redbaron shouldn't have brought this up anyways. It doesn't help answer the OP's question unless we open up the battery. It's best to leave the battery a black box (of yes! upcase ENERGY as electric potential energy) and we should really only discuss work done by the emotor + ICE using units of power.

 

[vap0rtranz]

Electric meter blipped for a second putting down a lot of power, then at 25mph and still accelerating EV plummets down to 8KW while ICE is up to 92KW:

Yup. I saw this same setup awhile ago from another Youtube video with a driver who put the Escape Hybrid into Sport, Eco, & Normal Drive modes. Same outcome: tach shows eMotor Kw output briefly spike at 1st, ICE quickly takes over as bulk power output, then eMotor comes back with a few kW (~20kW emotor vs >100kW ICE) to assist. Oddly enough, Sport cuts the eMotor out much earlier than the other drive modes.

Here's that video:

 

[fbov]

I mentioned it does the same thing no matter which mode you select,

I don't think anyone is aware of their HVB SOC in any of these videos. Let me ask a question or two.

1) What does the EV coach display show?
2) What's the highest ICE output you can get with EV=0?

These are the two proxies I have found for an HVB SOC meter.
- EV Coach has an EV-Available outline that maxes out when HVB is ~25% useful charge.
- "Hybrid" mode, defined as both ICE and EV making torque, has a threshold that drops as HVB SOC rises.

At full charge, I've seen 1/11, EV starts to kick me into Hybrid mode at 11kW. Your display was 0/80, while I've never stayed ICE-only past 40kW. Looks like low HVB SOC.

I mention SPORT mode because it's a hybrid-only mode. ICE is always on, so the HVB serves only to improve ICE efficiency, never to drive the wheels. Repeated tests like these will drain the HVB very well.

Finally, I see no way to tell how much ICE torque goes to the wheel, rather than the charging motor. I assume the EV display is HVB-based, so a dip in EV may just be a dip in HVB discharge, but a rise in real-time, generated power, and so EV torque.

here’s what it looks like VS RPM. You see the electric motor doesn’t help THAT much

As I said the first time, I don't see how you've included the motor output. My issue is in how you set up your model.

I think you also have one HP curve in with the torque curves?

Nope. We aren't going to agree on this.

This is not something that requires your agreement.
1 Watt is defined as 1 Joule/sec.
1 joule is defined as the work done by a force of 1 Newton applied over 1 meter.

Scientists agreed on these definitions centuries ago. Your choice to get with the program.

 

[STARCOMMTREY1]

Im just waiting for the aftermarket supercharger or turbo!!!!!!

 

[mamboman777]

Im just waiting for the aftermarket supercharger or turbo!!!!!!

I'm pretty sure that's a good day to blow up the transmission...

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