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Combined torque that Maverick hybrid will produce?

mamboman777

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So, what is the combined torque that this hybrid will produce? I have found 155 lbs/ft, but whenever I see that it also says gasoline. When the horsepower is listed it's a combined 191, but I don't see the torque combined like that. Anyone know why?
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Ford's really skimped on technical information on the HF45. We can assume The HF45+ will have no less power than the motor on the HF35, for which I found these ratings:
118 hp@6,000 RPM/88kW@6,000
Torque 177 lb.-ft./240Nm

The combined rating is problematic for several reasons. ICE RPM can vary independent of speed, so its contribution tends to be constant. Electric motors like these are current-limited for torque at low RPM, displaying a flat curve at maximum torque up the point where current draw (and torque) starts to fall.

However, the 35kW regen limit implies a limit on HVB power through the inverter, so getting the most out of the traction motor likely involves the ICE pushing the charging motor, too, leaving less ICE torque available for the road. Lots of variables in this control system!!!
 
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mamboman777

mamboman777

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Ford's really skimped on technical information on the HF45. We can assume The HF45+ will have no less power than the motor on the HF35, for which I found these ratings:
118 hp@6,000 RPM/88kW@6,000
Torque 177 lb.-ft./240Nm

The combined rating is problematic for several reasons. ICE RPM can vary independent of speed, so its contribution tends to be constant. Electric motors like these are current-limited for torque at low RPM, displaying a flat curve at maximum torque up the point where current draw (and torque) starts to fall.

However, the 35kW regen limit implies a limit on HVB power through the inverter, so getting the most out of the traction motor likely involves the ICE pushing the charging motor, too, leaving less ICE torque available for the road. Lots of variables in this control system!!!
So, do we believe in practice it's actually greater than 155?
 

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So, do we believe in practice it's actually greater than 155?
The torque will be fine. Numbers are different at different rpms and the listed numbers are maximum. Electric motors produce far more torque at very low rpms than ice.
 

WesM

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Anyone care to hypothesize with me?

The Maverick has a 1KWh battery. That means at full charge it can provide continuous 1000 watts of electricity for one hour. So the total contained energy is about 60KW. This is assuming ford does not limit our access to the battery capacity in order to increase the battery longevity.

If we do a really simple calculation to extrapolate the electric contribution to the power range and say of the 191 HP max, about 165HP/155 lb/ft is coming from the ICE. That should mean 26HP(about 19.39kw) is being contributed from electric.

And here is were we really go into assumption lala land. If we look at 20KW eMotors to get an idea of their general torque output, we generally see a torque output of around 50 lb/ft. So for a theoretical max torque (major caveats/disclaimers etc etc) we could say its, as advertised, around 205 ft/lb. Not too bad right? well we are forgetting our battery over there, at 20kw being drained, we would fully deplete the battery in about 3 seconds...

205ft/lb is extremely suspect too, since I doubt you can drain a 1KWh battery safely in 3 seconds.

Am I completely off or does this sound reasonable?


EDIT All wrong, just trying to figure out how it works!
 
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vap0rtranz

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So, do we believe in practice it's actually greater than 155?
Of course it will be. I've been just as curious about the actual torque # but calculating anything looked like speculation.

The traction motor is 88kw peak output and it's not draining the battery in 3 seconds so your math is way off.
Where is the # coming from?

fbov or someone linked an article awhile back that quote Ford engineers saying the new HF45+ emotor generates 2,300Nm torque / 98 kW power.

https://www.designnews.com/automoti...se-maverick-hybrid-e-motor-20-percent-lighter

say of the 191 HP max, about 165HP/155 lb/ft is coming from the ICE.
Where are these ICE #s coming from?

When Wards gave the 2.5L Duratec Atkinson its award 10 years ago, they put the ICE at a mere 136 lb.-ft. (184 Nm). You'd think a decade of engineering could squeeze out more power from the ICE. Variations of the Mazda L could generate more power. But that old article's combined horsepower is the same as the Mav's now: 191hp.

https://www.wardsauto.com/news-analysis/ford-25l-i-4-hybrid-unprecedented-efficiency-refinement

So any torque improvement will be coming from the emotor, and we can keep the ICE #s a constant. Getting to the blended/combined # is ... evidently just a guess.

What we CAN say is actually no small feat: the Hybrid can tow 2000# up the 12% grade at Davis Dam. The DesignNews article is unique because Ford engineer's admitted that they sent the Hybrid up the Davis Dam test to arrive at the 2000# towing rate, and had to generate enough torque for that test.
 

JASmith

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Of course it will be. I've been just as curious about the actual torque # but calculating anything looked like speculation.

fbov or someone linked an article awhile back that quote Ford engineers saying the new HF45+ emotor generates 2,300Nm torque / 98 kW power.

https://www.designnews.com/automoti...se-maverick-hybrid-e-motor-20-percent-lighter
Cool find, so for the lazy like me, that link says the 2.5 is contributing "156-hp, 136 lb.-ft. (184 Nm)" and was paired with a "106-hp electric drive motor for a surprisingly satisfying combined peak output of 191 hp. "

So only 35hp and 19ftlbs at higher RPMs where the ICE peak is? Here's a typical torque curve of an electric motor:
Ford Maverick Combined torque that Maverick hybrid will produce? AC15_300graph


I think the confusion is that if I remember right, when they say that an electric motor is rated for whatever power, they are just talking about a theoretical possibility of what it could produce before the windings become a giant blob of melted copper, lol!

The actual power would be limited by the current that the battery and rest of the system can handle, along with any smoothing algorithms that also artificially reduce the torque the electric motor is providing so it doesn't damage anything (like on the BMW i3 they had to soften it as the instant torque otherwise was causing bolts to sheer) and since its a itsy bitsy battery they probably tune it for whatever the most efficient load is. Hence the weak contribution.

Easiest would be not to even worry about it that much, and just go drive an Escape hybrid and see how it feels and then compare that to an Ecoboost hybrid. Even though people hype on about how torquey electric motors are, chances are pretty high that the Ecoboost will feel a lot torquier when punching it even at a lowly 2K rpm. For example, I'm not sure what the ecoboost is, but the 2.5T smartstream in the Santa Cruz they were bragging about how it makes 311ftlbs of torque at 1,650rpm which is going to be way more than the combined torque of the Maverick hybrid. And ditto I recently drove around a BMW i3 which is pure electric, and the torque off the line was nothing compared to our Corvette that is a mere naturally aspirated engine. So what is "fine" or not will all just be up to butt-feel and what you are accustomed to.
 

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Anyone care to hypothesize with me?

The Maverick has a 1KWh battery. That means at full charge it can provide continuous 1000 watts of electricity for one hour. So the total contained energy is about 60KW.

Am I completely off or does this sound reasonable?
I don’t know where you are getting this from. 1kWh is the “contained energy”, also equivalent to 3600 kJ.
Watts is a measure of power which is energy over time.
joules is a measure of energy. If the battery is 1 kWh it would be 3600 kJ of energy contained… (3600s (1hr) x 1 kW)
 
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JASmith

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I don’t know where you are getting this from. “Contained Energy” 1kWh is the contained energy equivalent to 3600 kJ.
Watts is a measure of power which is energy over time.
joules is a measure of energy. If the battery is 1 kWh it would be 3600 kJ of energy contained… (3600s (1hr) x 1 kW)
Joules and watt hours can both describe capacity, but nobody uses joules to describe electric vehicle batteries (or heck any batteries even my lawn mower), its almost always watt hours.
 

Redbaron

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Joules and watt hours can both describe capacity, but nobody uses joules to describe electric vehicle batteries (or heck any batteries even my lawn mower), its almost always watt hours.
Yeah. Wh is commonly usually for describing battery capacity’s becuase it is easier to visualize (even though there are redundant units in it). I wasn’t arguing that. But In the post I quoted he was claiming that 60 kW is the battery capacity “contained energy” which doesn’t make sense whatsoever. As he was trying to do a calculation. That’s what I was trying to point out
 

WesM

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Yeah. Wh is commonly usually for describing battery capacity’s becuase it is easier to visualize (even though there are redundant units in it). I wasn’t arguing that. But In the post I quoted he was claiming that 60 kW is the battery capacity “contained energy” which doesn’t make sense whatsoever. As he was trying to do a calculation. That’s what I was trying to point out
I freely admit know little to nothing about electricity! The 60kw was 1000w over 60 minutes being 60000 watts. Or does 1kwh mean its only able to release 1kw over one hour? Like I said I know little to nothing about this side of things.

What I'm trying to figure out is how quickly the electric motor drains the battery, essentially how long can you get an electric boost under normal conditions before it has to turn off to charge.

To the uneducated (my) eye it seems like a 88KW motor would hardly be able to get any runtime on a 1kwh battery at all, I'm just curious how it works.
 
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WesM

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HP numbers are coming from Fords own Maverick Spec Sheet

Horsepower* 162 hp @ 5,600 rpm
Torque* 155 lb.-ft. @ 4,000 rpm
 

es7129

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Cool find, so for the lazy like me, that link says the 2.5 is contributing "156-hp, 136 lb.-ft. (184 Nm)" and was paired with a "106-hp electric drive motor for a surprisingly satisfying combined peak output of 191 hp. "

So only 35hp and 19ftlbs at higher RPMs where the ICE peak is? Here's a typical torque curve of an electric motor:
AC15_300graph.png


I think the confusion is that if I remember right, when they say that an electric motor is rated for whatever power, they are just talking about a theoretical possibility of what it could produce before the windings become a giant blob of melted copper, lol!

The actual power would be limited by the current that the battery and rest of the system can handle, along with any smoothing algorithms that also artificially reduce the torque the electric motor is providing so it doesn't damage anything (like on the BMW i3 they had to soften it as the instant torque otherwise was causing bolts to sheer) and since its a itsy bitsy battery they probably tune it for whatever the most efficient load is. Hence the weak contribution.

Easiest would be not to even worry about it that much, and just go drive an Escape hybrid and see how it feels and then compare that to an Ecoboost hybrid. Even though people hype on about how torquey electric motors are, chances are pretty high that the Ecoboost will feel a lot torquier when punching it even at a lowly 2K rpm. For example, I'm not sure what the ecoboost is, but the 2.5T smartstream in the Santa Cruz they were bragging about how it makes 311ftlbs of torque at 1,650rpm which is going to be way more than the combined torque of the Maverick hybrid. And ditto I recently drove around a BMW i3 which is pure electric, and the torque off the line was nothing compared to our Corvette that is a mere naturally aspirated engine. So what is "fine" or not will all just be up to butt-feel and what you are accustomed to.
Sounds like the SC has a beautiful torque curve. Too bad it’s $15k more than a hybrid Maverick and $10k more than an XL ecoboost with awd.
I’m not worried about the butt dyno with the hybrid Maverick. While I don’t expect to win any races that instant torque should be enough to make it feel quick enough.
My TDI had 330ftlbs and should have similar 0-60 as the Maverick.
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