TFL Slip Test on 2025 Maverick Hybrid AWD

[colinl]

There are many, probably most, possibly all Maverick owners and participants to this thread that want it not to fail an obvious traction test. That's the opposite of bespoke, my friend.

you seem to be ignoring the possibility that they did this for fuel economy. I led you there, but you carried on as if the design goal of the hybrid awd is off-road, yet clearly it is not.

it does not need to succeed on a 3 wheel roller slip test to offer more capability than a fwd hybrid Maverick. the latter is clearly what we can expect and if *that* is not achieved, then yes, the awd feature is pointless.

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[dn325ci]

you seem to be ignoring the possibility that they did this for fuel economy. I led you there, but you carried on as if the design goal of the hybrid awd is off-road, yet clearly it is not.

Glad you gave up on the bespoke thing. That was silly. It's obviously an issue many are concerned about, and still more would be if informed. No, not ignoring a fuel economy argument. I'm a mechanical engineer.

Direct and indirect considerations here, though the direct is nearly irrelevant. The notion that you need to compromise a rarely active traction control system to make a significant overall improvement to fuel economy is very likely fruitless. What percentage of time is traction control active? Very little. The impact of braking a slipping wheel directly is relatively negligible.

I own a EB AWD - I'm not exclusively focused the hybrid AWD. Though if I were, the issue of whether the hybrid's front axle/CVT/differential is capable of transferring power when a spinning wheel is braked is unknown to me. However, Subaru uses a great many CVT's and passes the test as have other manufacturers TFL has tested if memory serves, so I wouldn't give Ford an excuse or pass on the matter.

 

[colinl]

The notion that you need to compromise a rarely active traction control system to make a significant overall improvement to fuel economy is very likely fruitless. What percentage of time is traction control active? Very little. The impact of braking a slipping wheel directly is relatively negligible.

disagree with much of this.

if it were only fwd, your first assertion would have more relevance. but since it's awd and energizing the ptu costs enough efficiency that even ecoboost awd mavericks are fwd after initial acceleration from rest, until/unless heavy throttle is applied or slippage detected, I would say that Ford cares about even trivial fuel economy gains of 1-2 mpg. (have you seen mfg and epa estimates of fuel savings with autostop on non-hybrid vehicles? it's less than 2mpg, yet here we are.)

point 2, think about the impact in snowy conditions or offroad. there is frequent front wheel slippage especially with poor traction tires... like they come with stock, because stock are optimized for rolling resistance = fuel economy. think about the impact while towing, when the hitch weight is unloading the front tires. (awd ecoboost mavericks can and do spin the front tires towing.)

point 3, you are making an assumption regarding the impact of a braking front wheel with a e-cvt. what does happen if we brake one wheel to zero and the other has 100% torque and then gains a lot of traction? broken transmission? broken axle? these can happen with a standard transaxle or differential, but is the e-cvt more vulnerable / more easily damaged if it rapidly goes from high slip to high traction?

 

[23grayXLT84]

what is the consensus here.
Is AWD worth the $2200 price tag (lets ignore the 4k towing) or not ?

 

[colinl]

what is the consensus here.
Is AWD worth the $2200 price tag (lets ignore the 4k towing) or not ?

hardly anyone has a hybrid awd yet and even fewer of those people have driven it offroad or in severe winter weather. it's going to be months before there's a lot of data and opinions about it.

if you're curious because you're ordering one I would suggest that you watch the video and decide for yourself, using the assumption that the performance you see is the performance you'll get.

 

[dn325ci]

if it were only fwd, your first assertion would have more revelance. but since it's awd and energizing the ptu costs enough efficiency that even ecoboost awd mavericks are fwd after initial acceleration from rest, until/unless heavy throttle is applied or slippage detected, I would say that Ford cares about even trivial fuel economy gains of 1-2 mpg. (have you seen mfg and epa estimates of fuel savings with autostop on non-hybrid vehicles? it's less than 2mpg, yet here we are.)

point 2, think about the impact in snowy conditions or offroad. there is frequent front wheel slippage especially with poor traction tires... like they come with stock, because stock are optimized for rolling resistance = fuel economy. think about the impact while towing, when the hitch weight is unloading the front tires. (awd ecoboost mavericks can and do spin the front tires towing.)

point 3, you are making an assumption regarding the impact of a braking front wheel with a e-cvt. what does happen if we brake one wheel to zero and the other has 100% torque and then gains a lot of traction? broken transmission? broken axle? these can happen with a standard transaxle or differential, but is the e-cvt more vulnerable / more easily damaged if it rapidly goes from high slip to high traction?

You're wrong on the points 1 and 2 for two primary reasons, but I'll let you work it out.

Point 3 is the last part of my response that you didn't quote but yes, there may be a potential mechanical disadvantage of Ford's particular cvt that isn't known to me, but other manufacturers have already figured out.

 

[colinl]

You're wrong on the points 1 and 2 for two primary reasons, but I'll let you work it out.

conveniently saving you the trouble of not only typing it, but also defending it.

that's a pretty lazy excuse, to use your preferred terminology.

 

[dn325ci]

conveniently saving you the trouble of not only typing it, but also defending it.

that's a pretty lazy excuse, to use your preferred terminology.

A little bit, maybe. Heading home to get ready for our Buckeyes v. Texas party at our house, so I don't have time to spend on it. Think about what happens when a wheel spins. Also think about the test regiment.

And I said lame, not lazy.

 

[Tom 71 Maverick 24]

Ok I will type slower- That's not at all the statement or question- The fact that you assume for some reason that the Hybrid AWD is going to behave just like the Turbo/AWD with a completely different set of characteristics in off-road traction limited stations is just not making sense.

I'm going to throw out a theory here, and it's based on the different transmission systems of the 2 vehicles, the EB with 8-speed auto vs the Hybrid with the ECVT. One thing that the EB/8 speed has that the ECVT does not have is a fluid coupling in the torque converter. In the 3 wheels-on-rollers test, the 4th wheel would not pull the vehicle out, but one would expect that in that situation, the system's logic would have applied brakes to the opposite rear wheel to transfer torque to the one wheel with traction. The center PTO has a clutch so it can act essentially locked keeping front and rear more or less at equal speed.

Now, with the normal transmission, applying that right rear brake will make an abrupt change in load on the drive train but the fluid coupling of the 8 speed would absorb the shock. On the ECVT, there is no fluid coupling so any brake application to transfer torque on the single remaining wheel with traction would have to be very gentle or it will send a pretty strong shock wave back through the drive train.

My thought is this, and its only a theory - the algorithms in the Hybrid AWD are gentler to prevent shocking the drive train too harshly since there is no torque converter to absorb any shock.

Has this guy tested a non-Hybrid AWD Maverick to compare?

 

[L30n1d45]

There are many, probably most, possibly all Maverick owners and participants to this thread that want it not to fail an obvious traction test

It did fine on the 2-wheel roller test, which is honestly what I would expect for an AWD vehicle that is really only intended to provide a little more traction during inclement weather.

If the maverick being tested was the tremor package and was intended more for off-road use, then it failing the 3-roller test would be more of an issue, but that isn't what it is.

 

[colinl]

Has this guy tested a non-Hybrid AWD Maverick to compare?

'this guy' = TFL is a channel, and there's at least 4 of them involved right now and used to be others who seem no longer involved.

at any rate, no, I don't think they've put another type of awd maverick on the rollers. they did tow test a '22 (fwd of course) hybrid, and they had a '23 tremor for a while. they definitely did test a bronco sport badlands on the rollers and the test hill, which is the same drivetrain as a maverick tremor. (spoiler: it kicked ass.)

 

[L30n1d45]

they definitely did test a bronco sport badlands on the rollers and the test hill, which is the same drivetrain as a maverick tremor. (spoiler: it kicked ass.)

I think the general conclusion we can gather from the 2025 hybrid awd slip test vs the Bronco's slip test is:

If you want to go off-road, get a trim designed for it (Tremor). The Maverick AWD Hybrid is not, and was never intended to be an off-road vehicle.

 

[Tom 71 Maverick 24]

no. the front differentials are for the manual transmissions, and the Focus RS center differential is different than any Maverick so far. I didn't feel like digging into it exhaustively since you're way off base, but I did see they have a Taurus SHO front LSD and that would be a 6F55 transmission, so not compatible, yet somewhat positive to see because it's a fwd automatic transmission application.

I'm sure quaife would do this given enough money. The problem, however, is that quaife lsds are mechanical helix / torsen differentials which are not effective in infinite slip situations like a wheel in the air or 3 of them on rollers.

If I'm not mistaken, my Honda Civic Si (2008) had a torsen limited slip differential. FWD only, of course, but it was a pretty fun car to drive. Anyway, yeah, an LSD is not a locker, but it does give a good amount of torque transfer on its own, and with individual wheel braking, it would be pretty useful in transferring power to the wheel with traction.

 

[colinl]

Now, with the normal transmission, applying that right rear brake will make an abrupt change in load on the drive train but the fluid coupling of the 8 speed would absorb the shock. On the ECVT, there is no fluid coupling so any brake application to transfer torque on the single remaining wheel with traction would have to be very gentle or it will send a pretty strong shock wave back through the drive train.

My thought is this, and its only a theory - the algorithms in the Hybrid AWD are gentler to prevent shocking the drive train too harshly since there is no torque converter to absorb any shock.

I like that line of thinking because while I can't directly compare the actual gear teeth sizes and material strengths, generally a planetary gearset is pretty robust.

leading me to then suspect if it's the strength and durability of the cv axles that this lack of traction control is trying to protect.

 

[Tom 71 Maverick 24]

I like that line of thinking because while I can't directly compare the actual gear teeth sizes and material strengths, generally a planetary gearset is pretty robust.

leading me to then suspect if it's the strength and durability of the cv axles that this lack of traction control is trying to protect.

Good point - the CV axles seem to potentially be the weakest link in these drive trains. I guess that's better than some internal piece in the Transmission or PTU, but they could stand to be stronger (and thus the 1000 threads on that issue).

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