Air Filter - Trash Talk

[Snox801]

You should see all the dusted engine in the SxS world that used K&N. They are very poor "filters" and that is fact. I stopped using them about 15 years ago when I found the charge pipes of my supercharged SHO lined with dirt. Even 'done properly', they will never filter as well as a better "filter".

But, there is A LOT of information in the Googles showing that K&N filters are not good at being air filters.

Those are not greased around the rim. I run them in sxs and ran those in my tab’s at the pro level for years.
Sand, dirt, dust. You name it I’ve been in it. Not once have I had an issue with dirt getting past. If it is someone installed it wrong or damaged it while washing.
I’ve seen a lot of them but it’s rarely the filter itself at fault.

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[Snox801]

Hey, I get it, perception rules the day.

I do use a reusable K&N for my cabin filter, I think it makes sense in that application for me, since I have no allergies or sinus conditions. Oddly, you don't oil the cabin filters, just rinse them out & reinstall dry.

I should have said it differently. Are they better? No probably won’t matter till pushing for more power. But they do work and do the job. Btw I don’t run them exclusively. I drive a lot. I use a lot of them and I’ve never got rid of a car or truck without it having well over 300k on it. Basically it’s gonna outlast what most people will ever do without and issues.

 

[Snox801]

You should see all the dusted engine in the SxS world that used K&N. They are very poor "filters" and that is fact. I stopped using them about 15 years ago when I found the charge pipes of my supercharged SHO lined with dirt. Even 'done properly', they will never filter as well as a better "filter".

But, there is A LOT of information in the Googles showing that K&N filters are not good at being air filters.

I realized my response was dixkish. Not the intent.
Filters are like anything and can have many faults. I can say I’ve never had an issue with mine in anything I’ve had. But as you know nobody should take one persons word. Take in a few peoples advice and use what fits your needs.

 

[yamahaSHO]

Those are not greased around the rim. I run them in sxs and ran those in my tab’s at the pro level for years.
Sand, dirt, dust. You name it I’ve been in it. Not once have I had an issue with dirt getting past. If it is someone installed it wrong or damaged it while washing.
I’ve seen a lot of them but it’s rarely the filter itself at fault.

Are you talking about greasing it at the sealing surface? OEM requires it for many of the air filter installs, so I wouldn't blanket statement that they are not greased.

That said, there is a plethora (overwhelming) of data and examples to be found on the web, so there's really no point in me arguing the point. It lets in more dirt than it should. The dirt I found in my charge pipes was a new filter used correctly, and it was a road going car that didn't go off the pavement.

I use an AEM Dry Flow on my track car, and OEM paper filters on everything else. I even go as far as to install particle separators on my SxS' with UOA before and after.

Since putting those in, I haven't had to change a filter in 2,500 miles of riding silty, dusty trails. Prior to that, I had to replace the filter after every weekend. A lot of guys won't buy a used machine if it has a K&N on it.

 

[Snox801]

Well to counter point we can find probably as many data points online also that have zero issues. So that’s moot. I run them in my off-road stuff and never had an issue. How would one have multiple built engines go more than 300k in construction off road conditions if the didn’t work.
Airraid at one time had a whole deal about how each filter worked and the bottom line was they both worked dry and oiled. But did it a different way. My point is that for every person like me who has had them on everything and never had an issue we can find someone like you who has not liked them.
But it’s good we both stated our experience to let the end user decide. Much like the oil debate.

 

[yamahaSHO]

Well to counter point we can find probably as many data points online also that have zero issues. So that’s moot. I run them in my off-road stuff and never had an issue. How would one have multiple built engines go more than 300k in construction off road conditions if the didn’t work.
Airraid at one time had a whole deal about how each filter worked and the bottom line was they both worked dry and oiled. But did it a different way. My point is that for every person like me who has had them on everything and never had an issue we can find someone like you who has not liked them.
But it’s good we both stated our experience to let the end user decide. Much like the oil debate.

Actually, there's a bunch of test data out there from many sources that shows dirt gets through. Not only does it like to wear valve seats and rings, but also gets into the oil. Not knowing the conditions of your off roading doesn't help. I've been to some dusty places, then I've been to some really dusty places. It's kinda like oil... "I use this and it's the best", based on my engine not blowing up. BUT... Some of us do regular sampling (I sent two samples off this week) and make use of it and pick things based on intended usage and data.

You run what you want, but I'm going to go with the data I've seen over the years, my personal experiences, and experiences with customer vehicles. Also, contrary to what people may have read, a dirty K&N does not filter better, it creates a higher velocity through the lesser usable media to pull dirt in better. I just don't know why anyone would elect to actually filter less... for how much power? Contaminates and excessive heat kills motors.

 

[S Dundee]

Those are not greased around the rim. I run them in sxs and ran those in my tab’s at the pro level for years.
Sand, dirt, dust. You name it I’ve been in it. Not once have I had an issue with dirt getting past. If it is someone installed it wrong or damaged it while washing.
I’ve seen a lot of them but it’s rarely the filter itself at fault.

The pores of the filter media on a K&N air filter are HUGE. It you magnify an image of the K&N media, it looks like gigantic holes in the cotton gauze. No amount of red dyed oil can pick off those dirt particles. For that matter, if you just hold up your K&N air filter to a light you can see with the naked eye the large imperfections in the media. As others have noted, there are many air filter analyses on the Internet which demonstrated that the K&N air filters actually don't filter very well.

 

[Snox801]

Actually, there's a bunch of test data out there from many sources that shows dirt gets through. Not only does it like to wear valve seats and rings, but also gets into the oil. Not knowing the conditions of your off roading doesn't help. I've been to some dusty places, then I've been to some really dusty places. It's kinda like oil... "I use this and it's the best", based on my engine not blowing up. BUT... Some of us do regular sampling (I sent two samples off this week) and make use of it and pick things based on intended usage and data.

You run what you want, but I'm going to go with the data I've seen over the years, my personal experiences, and experiences with customer vehicles. Also, contrary to what people may have read, a dirty K&N does not filter better, it creates a higher velocity through the lesser usable media to pull dirt in better. I just don't know why anyone would elect to actually filter less... for how much power? Contaminates and excessive heat kills motors.

So I would like to see those test because if memory serves they had a lot of faulty data. Not saying you are wrong by any means just that I remember certain test that was proven false with kn.
As for my off road I raced atv’s on the ama pro tour when it was on espn. I’ve risen all over the country in every form of dust and dirt you could think of. Probably most brutal was the 12 hours of American. Basically off road race for 12 hours straight.
I just have not seen what you are stating or describing. Maybe why my stuff has lasted. But if I did see what you are describing I would also find a better solution. At 400k miles and a lot of drag racing and hauling I I can’t imagine it was to bad on my seats or valves.
I never had anything in my blackstone reports either.

 

[Snox801]

I’d also like to point out. KN also has an independent lab in San Antonio test the filters southwest labs . standard is 96 percent filter efficiency at 5 micron. Foam even less KN beats factory stands on this test.
Southwest uses a sae standard test for this. So please link or post where I could search to find sae test or another standard that shows they don’t filter.
at sae standards they dust capacity is 305g. With 99 percent.

As for another example that’s not just a random dude, must don’t know they were used in Apache helicopters after issues with other filter styles.
So when I hear they won’t filter sand I have to laugh. And is we are use the best tools we have we must take seriously the sae test.
Or rely on hearsay and personal experience. My experience has been very good and seem to suggest that the sae test are standard for a reason.
So one thing we can agree on is we both will rely on personal things we have seen, data we collect, and our personal experiences. If my latest group of ecobruce engines have issues I’d change in a heartbeat.

 

[Nw_adventure]

Good talk folks. I knew people would bring it. Let's see what's happens after a few drinks this evening. -) I am still on the fence -

 

[Snox801]

The pores of the filter media on a K&N air filter are HUGE. It you magnify an image of the K&N media, it looks like gigantic holes in the cotton gauze. No amount of red dyed oil can pick off those dirt particles. For that matter, if you just hold up your K&N air filter to a light you can see with the naked eye the large imperfections in the media. As others have noted, there are many air filter analyses on the Internet which demonstrated that the K&N air filters actually don't filter very well.

So our new testing standard is a light and internet test? Not a standard sae like every other automotive product. Even towing has a sae test.
Again I have zero issues with anyone running anything that makes them comfortable. It’s not my stuff and I make zero money when that product sells.
But nobody including myself learns anything or gains any knowledge without standardized tests. It would be like comparing dyno numbers with zero standards.
For me it comes down to the sae test, and my personal experience with many vehicles over more miles than most will ever drive.

 

[Snox801]

So, update I’ve found another test that uses a different standard than sae but seems legit. KN was not the highest filtration of the group. But it does appear to also pass one standards even in that test. Still scored over 96 percent efficiency in dust. Not the 99.05 of the sae but still past.
No im rethinking this whole game. Got a lot more research to do now.
Was good info because it shows that testing standards can be different and give different result.
Side note, I’ve heard nothing but great things about airraid dry filters. Trying to find more test info on them. Would like to see them against aem and KN.
All 3 are very common upgrades from a lot of engineering and engine builders.

 

[RichardCranium]

Funny how no one has brought up the fact that reusable air filters reduce waste. Honestly, that is why I usually run K&N.
Last car I had, I put a K&N filter in at 50,000 and used the same one until I gave it away at 225,000 miles. Always passed my visual test, and I always was the one to service it. I wouldn’t trust others to do it right. I have seen too many people try to dry one with the air compressor.
I have been running k&N for 27+ years. The owner of the shop I worked at used them, and he had 2 suburban while I worked for him, one with 500,000 miles before he sold it (he told me it came back in the shop with 750,000 miles on it years later) and his current suburban had 335,000. I can list off many vehicles with a lot of miles that run K&N for all their lives.

edit- Just to add, I have not put one in my Prius or Maverick yet and I am undecided if I will. Mainly because I don’t feel like cleaning them any more as I get older.

 

[Carlitos_92]

Good talk folks. I knew people would bring it. Let's see what's happens after a few drinks this evening. -) I am still in the fence -

Lol I have had that couple of beers already.

"I think anyone who uses ANY kind of air filter is choking their engine and leaving horsepower on the table." LFG!!!

(Just kidding, I use OEM exclusively but respect those that observe other filtration beliefs...)

 

[dalola]

This may be the only comprehensive comparison of different filters using ISO 5011. Most tests are run individually against standards. Even tho it's older, I think the data is relevant. I'd be curious to see if anyone has reference to a newer version of this type test? I have not been able to locate any.

https://ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/KN-test.pdf

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