Hybrid Maverick towing observations [*Hybrid talk only*]

[GPSMan]

Looks great. You have proven that it can basically do continuous duty up to 50% power. Overloaded with an un-aerodynamic brick of a trailer. In high temps and altitude, too. Makes me consider a set of bags if I ever load it down like that.

What max temps did you see? Coolant, traction motor, generator? I am assuming that battery temp was relatively stable.

Hard to tell in these pics - are you still on factory tires?

Towing, monitoring, etc - what was the most surprising part of what you learned about your truck

My curiosity is getting the best of me here… what’s in the trailer? And how was the trip other than the truck, lol.

Great questions.
Scan Gauge is GREAT but it does not log. It's like your trip meter. It resets every trip. So values are what I WITNESSED in real time.

Coolant: 215°F and for just moments on a long 6% uphill at 55 mph, 95 degree outdoors. The 95 was crossing the Cascades in Oregon and Washington. Although Southern Canada reached 90°F, sadly, a-mist some wild fires. Most of B.C. , Yukon, and SE Alaska was in the 60's and 70's

eCVT: 153°F
Traction Motor Coil: 156°F
Generator Motor Coil: 256°F and only when above 60% sustained output. After doing that twice, I slowed only a few MPH and kept it under 250°F on all future hills. No alarms or lights.
HV Battery: 109°F

Factory Tires, Yes.

Two surprising things:
HV battery temperature was a non-issue and Hbattery not utilized very much in tow/haul mode, and the converse, the generator was being used A LOT. I call it locomotive mode if you know how a diesel electric train locomotive works.

Also outdoor air temperature seems unimportant. The same peak temperatures I saw at 95°F ambient I saw at 65°F. Those 30 degrees had a negligible effect on the big picture.

I have a "side by side" 2 person OHV in the trailer with tools, spare tires, gas can, etc.

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[GPSMan]

This is NOT what I have in the trailer.

NOT mine. Stock photo from Internet.
"For illustrative purposes only."

Would you say this is over-rated?
The Hybrid Maverick is under-rated?
Both?

It's a "Ranger" huh huh, huh....

 

[MaveRichard]

I am trying to figure a stable mount to record the information from the ScanGauge with a camera so that I can track data after the fact. This may ultimately prove to be too much work, but only time will tell.

The coolant temp is consistent with what I saw towing with the ScanGauge II. It rises based on load to a point - Highest I saw was 207* after a 2 mile climb. Running 3000-3200 RPM.

Really good to know that traction motor temps stay right with eCVT temps. This is a non-issue. The limiting factor is the generators ability to dissipate heat. Even with this, the ceiling is pretty high.

Cool to know that it functions like a train in these situations. Explains the higher RPM and "instant torque" feeling that tow/haul gives. I was not yet monitoring battery charge when I was last towing.

Overall this shows me that, for its application, this vehicle is appropriately rated for "any idiot" to tow 2000 lbs. We know that it is capable of "pulling" more weight and with regenerative braking, it is even better equipped than a 4k tow Maverick to stop it.

The limitation is FWD and the available traction for cornering, braking and accelerating. I would call the rating conservative but more importantly safe - without trailer brakes and AWD.


I know I asked about peak numbers - how far off are these peaks from steady state? You mentioned that ambient temps were almost irrelevant.

Looks like you had a great trip and a great test of a your truck!

 

[GPSMan]

I have been known to record 30 seconds or a minute of the scangauge screen from time to time, and take photos of "benchmarks" when safe to do so. Such as at a stop sign after a long hill climb, etc.

I really wish it could log to a SD card.
CSV files would be fine with me. Could post process the "raw" data.

Maybe in the not yet here SG v.4?

I think (but yet to be proven) the eCVT is better for towing than a 6, 8, or 10 speed transmission.

I did literally over 1000 hills, each with unique slope. Zero hunting for gears, never stuck in a rut with a little too short or little too tall of gear. Always perfect for the condition.

 

[MaveRichard]

I did literally over 1000 hills, each with unique slope. Zero hunting for gears, never stuck in a rut with a little too short or little too tall of gear. Always perfect for the condition.

This is a point that I hadn't even considered because you don't even have to think about it. The fact that is can maintain stable temps while doing this is stellar. WAY less moving parts too.....less chance for fluid contamination.... 100% meshed gears... the list goes on.

I know you have been interacting with this powertrain for some time now, but the more that I learn about it watching the ScanGauge + what you have input here. I am just blown away by the capacity of this eCVT.

I watched it just today use "locomotive mode" on the first ICE start of the key cycle. RPM flare with no change in battery charge. This is the first time I have noticed this in normal mode but most of the time when accelerating that quickly I am not looking down at the SG. More often I find that it is using charge to boost the acceleration.

Thanks for all the info!

 

[GPSMan]

 

[GPSMan]

People's intuition that ANY energy conversion to get to tire rotation is worse than directly burning gas to get tire rotation is not accurate.

Toyota has best in class in fuel economy.
One of their gasoline engines can put 41% of the energy from gasoline into miles down the road.

Let's say the Maverick engine can convert 40%. (Made up number.)

Unplug the HV battery and traction motor, and assume 40% of the gasoline energy pushes you down the road.

Now plug all that back in.

It's generally accepted that an electric motor can put 93% of battery energy into the road.

The gas engine only has to be 45% efficient at making electricity to come out ahead in locomotive mode.

.45 of gas turns to electricity.
.93 of electrical energy goes into road.

.93 x .45 = 42.85% overall efficiency.

Made up values, but real life is probably better than this in "locomotive mode".

 

[Automate]

People's intuition that ANY energy conversion to get to tire rotation is worse than directly burning gas to get tire rotation is not accurate.

Toyota has best in class in fuel economy.
One of their gasoline engines can put 41% of the energy from gasoline into miles down the road.

Let's say the Maverick engine can convert 40%. (Made up number.)

Unplug the HV battery and traction motor, and assume 40% of the gasoline energy pushes you down the road.

Now plug all that back in.

It's generally accepted that an electric motor can put 93% of battery energy into the road.

The gas engine only has to be 45% efficient at making electricity to come out ahead in locomotive mode.

.45 of gas turns to electricity.
.93 of electrical energy goes into road.

.93 x .45 = 42.85% overall efficiency.

Made up values, but real life is probably better than this in "locomotive mode".

Ah, no.

It would be:
40% of the chemical energy of gas is converted by the engine to mechanical energy
93% of the mechanical energy from engine is converted to electrical energy by the generator
93% of the electrical energy from the generator is converted by traction motor to mechanical energy to the wheels

So 0.40 x 0.93 x 0.93 = 34.6% efficient

 

[GPSMan]

Ah, no.

It would be:
40% of the chemical energy of gas is converted by the engine to mechanical energy
93% of the mechanical energy from engine is converted to electrical energy by the generator
93% of the electrical energy from the generator is converted by traction motor to mechanical energy to the wheels

So 0.40 x 0.93 x 0.93 = 34.6% efficient

Not what I'm saying.
Gas engine to generator is less "lossy" than gas engine to wheels. By a good margin, while I don't have specifics at this time. Please read the above in this context.

 

[joeboxer22]

The stock hybrid comes with a transmission cooler. This thing says cool towing on the hottest of days.

The battery has a cooling system. As I stated, it does not get hot towing at steady speed. It is acceleration and deceleration that heats the battery. The battery will warm up in stop and go. But it's protected for this.

I've pushed my engine hard on a 100 degree day. It just won't overheat. Maybe it's the Atkinson cycle. Maybe it's the oversized radiator. Maybe a combination of both.

I'm in the middle of a long towing trip right now. Lots of hours in the seat (like 100 hours of towing) to study stuff. I'm looking at all the temperature sensors.

The needle (or bar graph, Lariat) I believe only shows engine coolant temperature. The owner who got an overheat message, and the needle didn't move, most likely had a generator over temperature condition.

In my Hybrid, while towing, the ONLY sensor that gets abnormally hot is the generator / starter motor.

Here is my correlation from 30 hours of study.

The over-temp worry is the generator.
It can heat up fast, but it also cools fast. This is why the other owner, NewMavIL, was able to clear the over-temp and continue in 5 minutes. Like 50°F temperature change in a minute or two or three.

Observation:

If you can keep the power needle at 50% or less, you (most likely) won't exceed any temperature threshold.

Spikes are fine for 30 seconds or a minute. But SUSTAINED power output at 60% is going to heat up the generator in 5 to 10 minutes. SUSTAINED power output of 70% is going to get to an over-temp in 3 to 5 minutes. Sustained output at 80%? 1 or 2 minutes. The liquid cooling loop is like a conveyor belt right? Conveying heat away from the motor(s). At very high output, it can't convey the heat away fast enough. The loop for the gas engine can. The loop for the generator, not so much.

So a quasi-scientific way to determine what you can pull is: you can pull anything, all day long, on a 100 degree day, so long as while you are pulling it, you can keep the needle at 50% or under. Short spikes above this are quite alright.

In a future post, lets discuss WHY the generator is the weakest link. The answer may not be what you'd expect.
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So how heavy of a load are you towing and what airbags are you using?

 

[AutoDrifter]

About a year ago I was towing some cabinets when all of a sudden the truck stopped and wouldn’t move for about 10 seconds then made a weird noise and started driving again never had a issue after that

 

[GPSMan]

About a year ago I was towing some cabinets when all of a sudden the truck stopped and wouldn’t move for about 10 seconds then made a weird noise and started driving again never had a issue after that

Can you be more specific?

For example there is a stall sensor.
If you have your wheels "chocked". Up against a curb, log, or if your bumper is up against a wall, and you press the pedal and the truck does not move, it cuts power, by design. In the generation one vehicles (2005-2008) there was no time delay to make a second attempt. But it would not surprise me if there was a 10 second "cool down" period in todays vehicles. Just a thought.

 

[ejouie]

The limitation is FWD and the available traction for cornering, braking and accelerating. I would call the rating conservative but more importantly safe - without trailer brakes and AWD.

Would wider tires solve that in theory? My Enclave is FWD and will tow 4500 lbs. Newer ones will do 5000 lbs. Tires are 255 wide though.

 

[GPSMan]

Would wider tires solve that in theory? My Enclave is FWD and will tow 4500 lbs. Newer ones will do 5000 lbs. Tires are 255 wide though.

If you've read my previous postings you may have seen an inexpensive, viable option is put air bags inside the rear springs to keep the truck level (or mostly level) while towing. That alone will keep more weight on the front tires. Some like a weight distribution hitch to accomplish the same, but that puts "bending" strain on the unibody frame.

 

[MaveRichard]

Would wider tires solve that in theory? My Enclave is FWD and will tow 4500 lbs. Newer ones will do 5000 lbs. Tires are 255 wide though.

Wider tires do generally have a higher load rating, but wider does not necessarily equal more traction. I do not think this would be a measurable change in towing ability but am open to being wrong here.

My assumption would be:

1. The Enclave weighs 1000lbs more than a Maverick.

2. Stiffer rear suspension in the Enclave due to more of the weight (passenger compartment) being over the rear axle.

3. Trailer brake controller installed from the factory.

Braking and cooling also play into this of course…

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