Selling my 2023 back to the dealer

[MaverickDragon]

Thinking that buying a Toyota will solve all of your automotive problems sounds dubious at best.

As was said, any manufacturer can produce a vehicle with problems, and they don't make Toyotas, or any other vehicles like they "used to".

The common problem with all modern vehicles, is that they are increasingly complex computer networks rolling on wheels, and dealerships don't have network engineers on staff to resolve glitchy problems. As a result, repairs are often addressed by rolling out the "parts cannon" and replacing components in the hope that the issue will go away.

In the op's case, it sounds like the source of the issue is the common problem of the car network's inability to function with a known battery issue that appears to be resolved by upgrade to a more capable AGM battery and a charge algorithm that actually keeps the battery charged rather than increasing the fleet CAFE fuel efficiency by 0.0000125%.

After the problem causing the issue is addressed, I think it likely that the new owner will have a lot better experience.

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[tiktokbrainrot]

Seems to be a common problem with hybrids now for some reason. I owned another older hybrid before and never had any problems during 6 years of ownership and I wasn't even the first owner. 16 years old with the original Panasonic AGM battery, it was crazy. The newer hybrids just seem to have way too many 12v battery problems, regardless of brand. Toyota, Lexus, Ford, all seem to have it, guess they are all just cheaping out and not developing good software or hardware for the vehicles anymore.

It's because all these automakers are doing the same thing: trying to squeeze every last MOG out to avoid CAFE/CO2 penalties. Lead acids have similar issues charging to 100 as lithium, that is it is much harder and requires more power, on a hybrid that means placing strain on the engine or draining the HV battery, both will reduce fuel mileage.

The easiest solution would be to do what boat guys did years ago, switch to lithium iron phosphate batteries and dump the lead acid. Lithium loves sitting at 70-80% charge.

Well there is that too for sure, but without all that EV nonsense, the company and the shareholders would be 19 billion dollars richer today. Once it's lost, it becomes red ink and never comes back. Lot's of tax write off I would say.

It's not nonsense, anymoreso then gasoline is nonsense.

Ford is a global corporation, and there are plenty of countries and governments pushing for EV adoption. So you're going to have to invest this money at some point and figure out how to build them. The companies that havent done so are going to be in an increasingly worse position going forward, unless they only intend to sell in places like South America.

The knowledge they gain from figuring out how to build EVs will be worth far more then dumping money into V8s like RAM is doing.

 

[White Thunder]

Taking my 2023 Lariat hybrid to the dealer I bought it from today. Selling it back to them.
Monday, it went BAT SHIT CRAZY. It would not start and had 6 error codes rolling across the screen. I used a jump box to get it started and drove 40 miles with only partial brakes available, and rolling codes on the dash. NOT FUN. The third time I have had to use a jump box to start it. Always on Batterty Tender Jr when not being driven. They replaced the 12v battery and flashed 5 modules.
Enough for me! I offered to sell it to them, they offered me $26000. In 4 hours I will get a check, they will get the most unreliable vehicle I have ever owned in 66 years of driving. Good luck to the next sucker. I'm getting a Toyota. I have owned three Toyota vehicles over the past 16 years, and I will own nothing but after today.
The MTC has been a great resource, the Maverick was fun while it lasted, but I am done. Fartley can continue to build record breaking recall vehicle. I won't own one.

Did you consider an ECOBOOST? I’ve had mine since 11-21, with no problems other than recalls.

 

[DanielP]

A friend of ours owns a 23 Maverick Hybrid, my son a 2024 Hybrid as well and I own a 2024 Lariat Ecoboost 2.0 L and none of us have any any issues!

 

[Bob The Builder]

It's because all these automakers are doing the same thing: trying to squeeze every last MOG out to avoid CAFE/CO2 penalties. Lead acids have similar issues charging to 100 as lithium, that is it is much harder and requires more power, on a hybrid that means placing strain on the engine or draining the HV battery, both will reduce fuel mileage.

The easiest solution would be to do what boat guys did years ago, switch to lithium iron phosphate batteries and dump the lead acid. Lithium loves sitting at 70-80% charge.

It's not nonsense, anymoreso then gasoline is nonsense.

Ford is a global corporation, and there are plenty of countries and governments pushing for EV adoption. So you're going to have to invest this money at some point and figure out how to build them. The companies that havent done so are going to be in an increasingly worse position going forward, unless they only intend to sell in places like South America.

The knowledge they gain from figuring out how to build EVs will be worth far more then dumping money into V8s like RAM is doing.

Well let's respectfully agree to disagree. Losing 19 Billion dollars on a product that currently captures 6% market share IMHO qualifies as a niche product at best. That is torture to the shareholders. You may disagree with my statement and that is fine but it sure goes against conventional wisdom IMHO.

Also I would say the Ford Lightning was Ford's biggest and costliest failure since the Edsel. I have no figures to back that up, but I would also suspect that is something Ford is not anxious to make public. Elon is not exactly giggling over the Cybertruck sales either.

I just cannot imagine Jensen Huang or Tim Cook, among others, doing this and still keeping their job.

 

[computerpulse]

Taking my 2023 Lariat hybrid to the dealer I bought it from today. Selling it back to them.
Monday, it went BAT SHIT CRAZY. It would not start and had 6 error codes rolling across the screen. I used a jump box to get it started and drove 40 miles with only partial brakes available, and rolling codes on the dash. NOT FUN. The third time I have had to use a jump box to start it. Always on Batterty Tender Jr when not being driven. They replaced the 12v battery and flashed 5 modules.
Enough for me! I offered to sell it to them, they offered me $26000. In 4 hours I will get a check, they will get the most unreliable vehicle I have ever owned in 66 years of driving. Good luck to the next sucker. I'm getting a Toyota. I have owned three Toyota vehicles over the past 16 years, and I will own nothing but after today.
The MTC has been a great resource, the Maverick was fun while it lasted, but I am done. Fartley can continue to build record breaking recall vehicle. I won't own one.

Well, sorry you got a bad one. My 23 hybrid still ticking.! I haven’t had any issues.

 

[pigsareus]

I’m not sure if you’ve noticed or not but valuations of auto manufacturers doesn’t have much to do with the quality of their vehicles.

crappy vehicles don't sell very well, lack of sales = lower valuations.

 

[Solaryellow]

So let's call this what it really is, buyers remorse. You found that you didn't need a Maverick for it's truck-like capabilities, so you feel that a Corolla Cross will better fit your lifestyle.

HRG

I had one as a rental before this truck was purchased and just wow and not in a good way.

 

[icegradner]

It's because all these automakers are doing the same thing: trying to squeeze every last MOG out to avoid CAFE/CO2 penalties. Lead acids have similar issues charging to 100 as lithium, that is it is much harder and requires more power, on a hybrid that means placing strain on the engine or draining the HV battery, both will reduce fuel mileage.

Not the real issue here at all, they are charging just fine. 12v Battery drain is caused by a combination of things and has nothing to do with MPG chasing. It comes down to a lack of testing, poor software programming, sloppy manufacturing, and lazy engineering. The real cause? Greed, the need for corporations to needlessly increase profits ever quarter, causing them the chase cost cutting at every opportunity possible. Evidence? Look at the number of recalls (across all brands) now compared to 20 years ago and do the math.

If I ran my business they way big corporations do, I’d be on the street in a few months.

 

[ScottyC]

Taking my 2023 Lariat hybrid to the dealer I bought it from today. Selling it back to them.
Monday, it went BAT SHIT CRAZY. It would not start and had 6 error codes rolling across the screen. I used a jump box to get it started and drove 40 miles with only partial brakes available, and rolling codes on the dash. NOT FUN. The third time I have had to use a jump box to start it. Always on Batterty Tender Jr when not being driven. They replaced the 12v battery and flashed 5 modules.
Enough for me! I offered to sell it to them, they offered me $26000. In 4 hours I will get a check, they will get the most unreliable vehicle I have ever owned in 66 years of driving. Good luck to the next sucker. I'm getting a Toyota. I have owned three Toyota vehicles over the past 16 years, and I will own nothing but after today.
The MTC has been a great resource, the Maverick was fun while it lasted, but I am done. Fartley can continue to build record breaking recall vehicle. I won't own one.

This is what I see when someone comes here to loudly complain and make the "I'm never going to own another (insert brand here) ever again!!" statement.

 

[tiktokbrainrot]

Well let's respectfully agree to disagree.

You're free to disagree, and I have no problem with that. Not everyone will see this the same

Losing 19 Billion dollars on a product that currently captures 6% market share IMHO qualifies as a niche product at best. That is torture to the shareholders. You may disagree with my statement and that is fine but it sure goes against conventional wisdom IMHO.

The issue with saying " Losing 19 Billion dollars on a product that currently captures 6% market share IMHO qualifies as a niche product at best" is that

A) the $19 billion is not on one product. It is on R&D for all their EV programs, and the facility they built will build technologies for their entire lineup, including vehicles not sold in the US.

and

B) $19 billion on its own is just a statistic with no context. What was the actual investment during that time period? According to the AAPC, the American big 3 invested $87.8 billion over 10 years into EVs. $19 billion of that is from Ford. This does not include Korean, European, or Japanese automakers, nor any investment in any country other then the USA. The AAPC again estimates that global annual investment in the automotive industry is $130 billion in R&D. By contrast, the paltry $1.9 billion per year over the last decade from Ford netted them a 6% market share, which is far larger then the sub 1% of the investment pie they put in it.

Also I would say the Ford Lightning was Ford's biggest and costliest failure since the Edsel. I have no figures to back that up, but I would also suspect that is something Ford is not anxious to make public. Elon is not exactly giggling over the Cybertruck sales either.

To me those comparing EV investment to the Edsel are no different then people complaining about fuel injection being bad when carburetors worked fine, or criticizing those garbage Japanese 4 banger tin cans in 1971 during the oil crisis. Technology moves forward, and globally EV sales continue to eclipse ICE, so those who dont invest will find their market continuously shrinking until eventually only the US is left, and we're not big enough to sustain these corporations at anywhere near their current size.

But history shows that when given the options, many corporations will continue to plug their ears until they need a bailout. Or 2 in Chrysler's case.

I just cannot imagine Jensen Huang or Tim Cook, among others, doing this and still keeping their job.

Apple has had multiple massive R&D projects that went nowhere. Apple's AR glasses, for instance, cost $33 billion in R&D, way more then Ford spent, and sold.....500k units, getting scrapped in just 18 months. An utter failure. Even at their astronomical price of $3,500 each, they only made $1.75 billion in sales on $33 billion in investment, a $31.25 billion loss.

Cook is still CEO.

As for Huang, I'd invite you to do some reading on nVidia. They have plenty of major blunders. The Geforce FX series cost them their reputation and launched ATi as their main competitor, their work on the sega saturn GPU nearly bankrupted them, Fermi launched in an atrocious state at a horrible time and drove the company to NEGATIVE PROFIT MARGINS.

Huang is still CEO. And nVidia is the most valuable company on earth.

One of the telltale signs of a dying industry is a refusal to spend money on R&D without guaranteed profit. R&D is never a guarantee of success. Sometimes projects dont pan out. That doesnt mean that the tech they produce is worthless. Apple's AR sensors and tech will undoubtably continue to live on in the medical space where the proved useful, nVidia's fermi would go on to become Kepler and then Pascal, which created a near monopoly on GPUs, and their CUDA tech they spent billion on during this time dominates the professional market now.

And Ford's EV tech will continue to serve them in every market that isnt the USA, and in the USA once we realize the future isnt going to stop coming. Every electric crossover, truck, and car they build will be able to draw their DNA back to that $19 billion investment, and when companies like RAM are desperately trying to figure out how to build an EV Ford will already know how. See also: the electric Charger fiasco. That alone showed that Ford was a full generation ahead of Stellantis.

Not the real issue here at all, they are charging just fine. 12v Battery drain is caused by a combination of things and has nothing to do with MPG chasing. It comes down to a lack of testing, poor software programming, sloppy manufacturing, and lazy engineering. The real cause? Greed, the need for corporations to needlessly increase profits ever quarter, causing them the chase cost cutting at every opportunity possible. Evidence? Look at the number of recalls (across all brands) now compared to 20 years ago and do the math.

If I ran my business they way big corporations do, I’d be on the street in a few months.

They are not charging just fine. Hybrids do not charge to 100%, they try to keep these lead acid batteries at ~80% SoC, and that is a death sentence for lead.

If they shipped with lithium ion 12v batteries, then yeah I'd agree they charge perfectly. The software drain is another major issue (and yet another reason to switch to lithium) but regardless of software if your system doesnt fully charge the battery its going to sulfate and destroy itself.

 

[icegradner]

Y

They are not charging just fine. Hybrids do not charge to 100%, they try to keep these lead acid batteries at ~80% SoC, and that is a death sentence for lead.

If they shipped with lithium ion 12v batteries, then yeah I'd agree they charge perfectly. The software drain is another major issue (and yet another reason to switch to lithium) but regardless of software if your system doesnt fully charge the battery its going to sulfate and destroy itself.

Keep in mind, I'm not just talking about the Maverick, and I''m talking about actual battery drain/parasitic draw issues that charging alone would not fix.. The 80% charge bit, that's a Ford thing, not all hybrids do it, yet many still have the same problem. There are bigger things going on here, but yes that is a small bit of the puzzle.

 

[Bob The Builder]

You're free to disagree, and I have no problem with that. Not everyone will see this the same

The issue with saying " Losing 19 Billion dollars on a product that currently captures 6% market share IMHO qualifies as a niche product at best" is that

A) the $19 billion is not on one product. It is on R&D for all their EV programs, and the facility they built will build technologies for their entire lineup, including vehicles not sold in the US.

and

B) $19 billion on its own is just a statistic with no context. What was the actual investment during that time period? According to the AAPC, the American big 3 invested $87.8 billion over 10 years into EVs. $19 billion of that is from Ford. This does not include Korean, European, or Japanese automakers, nor any investment in any country other then the USA. The AAPC again estimates that global annual investment in the automotive industry is $130 billion in R&D. By contrast, the paltry $1.9 billion per year over the last decade from Ford netted them a 6% market share, which is far larger then the sub 1% of the investment pie they put in it.

To me those comparing EV investment to the Edsel are no different then people complaining about fuel injection being bad when carburetors worked fine, or criticizing those garbage Japanese 4 banger tin cans in 1971 during the oil crisis. Technology moves forward, and globally EV sales continue to eclipse ICE, so those who dont invest will find their market continuously shrinking until eventually only the US is left, and we're not big enough to sustain these corporations at anywhere near their current size.

But history shows that when given the options, many corporations will continue to plug their ears until they need a bailout. Or 2 in Chrysler's case.

Apple has had multiple massive R&D projects that went nowhere. Apple's AR glasses, for instance, cost $33 billion in R&D, way more then Ford spent, and sold.....500k units, getting scrapped in just 18 months. An utter failure. Even at their astronomical price of $3,500 each, they only made $1.75 billion in sales on $33 billion in investment, a $31.25 billion loss.

Cook is still CEO.

As for Huang, I'd invite you to do some reading on nVidia. They have plenty of major blunders. The Geforce FX series cost them their reputation and launched ATi as their main competitor, their work on the sega saturn GPU nearly bankrupted them, Fermi launched in an atrocious state at a horrible time and drove the company to NEGATIVE PROFIT MARGINS.

Huang is still CEO. And nVidia is the most valuable company on earth.

One of the telltale signs of a dying industry is a refusal to spend money on R&D without guaranteed profit. R&D is never a guarantee of success. Sometimes projects dont pan out. That doesnt mean that the tech they produce is worthless. Apple's AR sensors and tech will undoubtably continue to live on in the medical space where the proved useful, nVidia's fermi would go on to become Kepler and then Pascal, which created a near monopoly on GPUs, and their CUDA tech they spent billion on during this time dominates the professional market now.

And Ford's EV tech will continue to serve them in every market that isnt the USA, and in the USA once we realize the future isnt going to stop coming. Every electric crossover, truck, and car they build will be able to draw their DNA back to that $19 billion investment, and when companies like RAM are desperately trying to figure out how to build an EV Ford will already know how. See also: the electric Charger fiasco. That alone showed that Ford was a full generation ahead of Stellantis.

They are not charging just fine. Hybrids do not charge to 100%, they try to keep these lead acid batteries at ~80% SoC, and that is a death sentence for lead.

If they shipped with lithium ion 12v batteries, then yeah I'd agree they charge perfectly. The software drain is another major issue (and yet another reason to switch to lithium) but regardless of software if your system doesnt fully charge the battery its going to sulfate and destroy itself.

Thank you for the good reply. Insightful discussion is a rare commodity these days is it not?

 

[Pointyears]

I have owned nothing but Ford over the past 30 years and they have been all reliable. Some of them I have had over 300k. My next vehicle will be my last and final and it will be a Ford.

Same here. With having 2 Ranger 4x4s, 3 Escapes, a Lincoln LS, and this Mav the only problems I ever had were with one Ranger's electric hubs seizing, and the LS eating coils (for which Ford extended the warranty on them to 100k). Granted, if I'd have kept Escape 1 any longer it would have fallen victim to the infamous CD4E transmission shudder.
Sitll, a great track record, IMO

 

[dochawk]

This is what I see when someone comes here to loudly complain and make the "I'm never going to own another (insert brand here) ever again!!"

Shane, come back!

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