Surging when stopped. Anyone else?

[Red Eyes - Wide Shut]

Ford does know about the surging, there was even a software update for the issue in 2023, but it didn’t do much other than reduce it a bit. It’s all related to the catalytic converter heat up process to reduce emissions. They aren’t going to fix it, simple as that.

Mine surges in cooler temps at high idle only. I had to bring it in twice to get Ferd to acknowledge a problem. I can make it happen any time in cool weather after it sits at least 4 hours or overnight, to fully cool off. They reprogrammed the TCM. It does it a lot less since.
It's interesting how with the battery issue and most things the go to fix, working or not seems to be software or oh well it's fine.
Funny how this post began in 2022 and we are still having the same problem. Thank god for this forum and the threads, or these issues would be hidden.

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[Mavster Mechanic]

Nope....nothing to do with temperature. It's more to do with the first "start" of the day...after sitting all night. Mine only does it at the end of my driveway when I stop to shut my gate and type in a destination. By the time I exit the neighborhood at the stop sign, it's not surging any longer. It was 80 degrees all week here...and it just did it this morning when it was about 70.

It IS due to a "cold engine".

Cold = less than 120°F

The effect is more the colder it gets though.

Has 100% to do with the engine running in "open loop" mode during warm up.

During this time the air/fuel ratio is not perfect so the engine runs a little rough.

The rough running engine is responsible for the slugging / surging phenomenon inherent to this type of transmission.

No real cure. And nothing is broken or wrong with your truck. Just one of those things.

 

[Red Eyes - Wide Shut]

It IS due to a "cold engine".

Cold = less than 120°F

The effect is more the colder it gets though.

Has 100% to do with the engine running in "open loop" mode during warm up.

During this time the air/fuel ratio is not perfect so the engine runs a little rough.

The rough running engine is responsible for the slugging / surging phenomenon inherent to this type of transmission.

No real cure. And nothing is broken or wrong with your truck. Just one of those things.

Nope, it is the tranny surging. Nothing to do with engine surge. The engine is smooth and constant. I can tell the difference, especially being you have to make sure to hold the brake solid. It tries to lung forward.

 

[Kenv24]

It IS due to a "cold engine".

Cold = less than 120°F

The effect is more the colder it gets though.

Has 100% to do with the engine running in "open loop" mode during warm up.

During this time the air/fuel ratio is not perfect so the engine runs a little rough.

The rough running engine is responsible for the slugging / surging phenomenon inherent to this type of transmission.

No real cure. And nothing is broken or wrong with your truck. Just one of those things.

Sorry Mavster… I should’ve clarified. I was addressing people saying it was “cold temperatures outside”. You are correct about the engine being cold. Also, it doesn’t have anything to do with the air temperature. My truck is surging EVERY morning that I start it …..even if it was 100° in the summer. surges every time I leave in the morning no matter what the temperature is outside.

 

[jacobk]

I have a 22xlt with 54,000 miles.
This past monday my truck went in for the battery issue, ford ran the tests battery failed the test but they wont replace it.
I also had them look at the surging issue I've been having. They surprisingly were able to duplicate the issue. (Typically they always say can not duplicate issue) The dealership techs said it was my spark plugs and replaced them under "warranty" didn't realize spark plugs went up in prices. $17.60 per spark plug plus installation fees. I paid my deductible and moved on. Dealership said it was the fix for it. We'll low and behold it was not. I am still getting the surge. So I placed a call back into dealership now waiting for a phone call back.

So update. I took my maverick back to dealership. They said they could not locate the issue and there was no fix from ford in the system. The service rep did state there were numerous other entries in the ford system for this issue. On top of that they are refunding me the $160 I paid for them to miss diagnose with new spark plugs they threw in.

 

[Mavster Mechanic]

So update. I took my maverick back to dealership. They said they could not locate the issue and there was no fix from ford in the system. The service rep did state there were numerous other entries in the ford system for this issue. On top of that they are refunding me the $160 I paid for them to miss diagnose with new spark plugs they threw in.

Glad you got your money back.

A fair deal. Since this is more or less inherent to the system. No real "problem" so no real "solution" in my well educated on this matter opinion.

Now that you know; just stay calm and carry on as they say. It's different than other cars/trucks you've owned.

 

[Scupking]

Its pretty normal for a cold Hybrid to surge a bit at a light. I think it may be related to the fuel quality. I notice it when I fill up with Shell fuel and its below freezing.

I think it's just an issue with the 22-24s. My 22 did it my 25 does not do it.

 

[Mavster Mechanic]

Nope, it is the tranny surging. Nothing to do with engine surge. The engine is smooth and constant. I can tell the difference, especially being you have to make sure to hold the brake solid. It tries to lung forward.

I'm under no obligation to convince you.

But it's all the same.

If you re-read my posts, they are accurate.

The engine is 100% connected to the transmission 100% of the time. So no, in this vehicle you can not tell the difference.

 

[HeyBales]

Nope, it is the tranny surging. Nothing to do with engine surge. The engine is smooth and constant. I can tell the difference, especially being you have to make sure to hold the brake solid. It tries to lung forward.

Is the RPM really constant on the ICE during those times?
During warmup, mine is jumping around 25-75 RPM, at minimum.
Now, that may sound smooth, nothing audible about it changes really.

But since the ICE is connected to eCVT - the Generator Motor has to be spun an exact ratio RPM (3.52?) to match the ICE RPM to cancel out any torque effect.
That's what it does in Neutral & Park & Reverse, and Drive stopped with brake pressed - no torque given to wheels until brake pedal is released. Traction Motor can supply that pull against the brakes for the creep.

This is warmed up - much smoother.

 

[Red Eyes - Wide Shut]

I'm under no obligation to convince you.

But it's all the same.

If you re-read my posts, they are accurate.

The engine is 100% connected to the transmission 100% of the time. So no, in this vehicle you can not tell the difference.

The dealership kept it overnight and reprogrammed the TCM. It is 100% the trans . Until you experience what others are saying, you can't make a diagnosis based on a hunch from a far. The eCVT gets power from 2 sources and combines them. At warm up during high SMOOTH, Idle the vehicle lunges and releases constantly at a stop. Zero to do with the ICE. IT momentarily grabs and releases. Come by my house and go for a drive and feel it. Of course the trans is hooked to the engine, again not the cause.

 

[Red Eyes - Wide Shut]

Is the RPM really constant on the ICE during those times?
During warmup, mine is jumping around 25-75 RPM, at minimum.
Now, that may sound smooth, nothing audible about it changes really.

But since the ICE is connected to eCVT - the Generator Motor has to be spun an exact ratio RPM (3.52?) to match the ICE RPM to cancel out any torque effect.
That's what it does in Neutral & Park & Reverse, and Drive stopped with brake pressed - no torque given to wheels until brake pedal is released. Traction Motor can supply that pull against the brakes for the creep.

This is warmed up - much smoother.

Yes the rpm is constant, verified by the dealership. It's as if the trans engages slightly, slightly lunges and disengages. Like the trans is trying to engage then backs off. Reverse of slipping and grabbing. Weird feeling. I worry that down the road there will be a real issue. Engine is strong and constant. The exact problem others are trying to explain. My dealer kept it for 2 days to try and figure out and as I said, reprogrammed the trans. It does it a lot less and with less of a harsh grab. It's almost like neutral drop light then slip or disengage. Lunge and slip to normal, no creep forward. Sometimes at a fast rate and sometimes at longer intervals. As if the vehicle has a spring connected to the back. It lurches then rocks back, almost like bouncing back and forth when the rate intervals are close together. Only happens at my first stop then feels normal.

 

[HeyBales]

So the trans "engaging" is all about the Generator Motor RPM matching the ICE RPM correctly.
The RPM being off by 50 the wrong way would have some ICE torque delivered to the wheels.
I'd guess the safe direction is if it's going to be off some RPM, make sure it's the correct way.

If stopped and brake held the Traction Motor shouldn't be involved - if it is receiving signal to spin that's a big problem - and should be easily seen in logs.

TCM logic telling the GM how fast to spin could indeed have had an update - should be interesting to observe.

The only other thing between ICE and eCVT is a damper to smooth things out - which I'm sure should make it easier for the GM to nail the correct RPM range.
We've had posts about that getting replaced under warranty.
Had a post about a driver running thru a seating process for it from his old car days. Worked IIRC.

Good point about them testing it in warm garage bay when it needs cold to be more apparent.

 

[Red Eyes - Wide Shut]

So the trans "engaging" is all about the Generator Motor RPM matching the ICE RPM correctly.
The RPM being off by 50 the wrong way would have some ICE torque delivered to the wheels.
I'd guess the safe direction is if it's going to be off some RPM, make sure it's the correct way.

If stopped and brake held the Traction Motor shouldn't be involved - if it is receiving signal to spin that's a big problem - and should be easily seen in logs.

TCM logic telling the GM how fast to spin could indeed have had an update - should be interesting to observe.

The only other thing between ICE and eCVT is a damper to smooth things out - which I'm sure should make it easier for the GM to nail the correct RPM range.
We've had posts about that getting replaced under warranty.
Had a post about a driver running thru a seating process for it from his old car days. Worked IIRC.

Good point about them testing it in warm garage bay when it needs cold to be more apparent.

Trust me it doesn't get that cold where I'm at. So, it only happens when it sits for maybe 4 hours or more, anything less nothing. When you first start, then take off with the ICE running and you make a stop before maybe a couple hundred feet. After that or if you start up and drive say a mile with no stops it doesn't happen. I believe it has something to do with parameters at very beginning of high idle. As if it is running at to high an rpm and trying to run away. And then in a split second letting go. Weird, the first couple of times it happened, I thought I was tripping, but it is. You know, after some of the experiences I had with this vehicle, I will probably never get another hybrid. Super frustrated with all the hassles, dealer visits and nagging unresolved issues. Looking at an SUV for my wife and it's going to be 100% gas.

 

[skinnyboy]

Yes the rpm is constant, verified by the dealership. It's as if the trans engages slightly, slightly lunges and disengages. Like the trans is trying to engage then backs off.

Ours has done this 4 or 5 times during the first stop after a cold start in almost 4 years. My assumption is software not dealing well with edge case inputs, since it happens so infrequently. Interested to see what the resolution is.

Cheers.

 

[425Tortuga]

We have a pre- MY25 XL hybrid at work (sorry don't know the year, seriously doubt it is older than MY23) that surges at a stop very infrequently. I don't drive that unit but have been in it twice where it has happened.

The guy who drives it swears it only ever happens when the nose of the truck is pointing down, and it doesn't have to be a steep hill. Just down.

He's got about 80k km on it and hasn't been able to figure out what it could be or any other patterns other than the nose angle.

He said the 1st time it happened he freaked out. lol

This is that part that I was wondering about. I understand now about the lurching at a dead stop, like it wants to get down the road, and yes mine has done that from the beginning, but it’s the big lurch or thrusting forward at a slight downhill or somewhat downhill grade. Depending on my speed (only form leaving my house to the first stop sign and maybe the second one) it can be a good nod forward. Almost like you were nudged from behind.
First time posting but have loved looking up issues with my baby. Now 60k+

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