Connecting rod bearing finally caught up with me

[Propane Burning Man]

one never really knows what another person knows, but based on your MTC account creation date and that you own a '24, I'm going to assume you don't know about this root issue.

there was a batch of MY21-23 hybrid 2.5L engines that had some kind of manufacturing defect. (probably bad rod bearings from supplier, but perhaps it was a machining tolerance or assembly issue. we don't know.) it wasn't just the maverick, it was other vehicles with the 2.5 atkinson cycle engine as well. https://www.mavericktruckclub.com/f...-100k-miles-for-dtc-p1061-and-or-p032f.50899/

Ford created new DTCs to detect this condition. when those are set, the work is done, which is a new a longblock.

I don't believe anyone has posted pics of a torn-down engine to show actual rod bearing or other lower engine damage, because when the techs pull the longblock this isn't required and they don't have the hours to spare since Ford specifies the allowed time. but to address your key contention, yes, it's possible that the damage is not yet severe enough to cause noise that is noticeable to the average owner. I can't remember anyone with this issue reporting catastrophic failure, like a piston or rod ejecting from the block, but I bet that has happened based solely on the number of affected vehicles.

You are correct about this being an issue I am just learning about. However, I do know a lot about bad rod bearings. Having previously worked in a high performance engine shop building engines for circle track racing I have seen many rod bearings go bad for numerous reasons. Rods and crankshafts do not break because of a bad rod bearing. Too much horsepower will break crankshafts if the crank is not made for that amount of horsepower. Bad machining can cause cracks in the crank. Wrong tolerances can also cause bearing failures as you pointed out. Lubrication also can cause major problems. But at some point the engine must be torn down to know for sure what is the problem.

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[icegradner]

I think I missed that one, but boy do I remember the guy who had an engine bay fire and then subsequent discussion revealed that he'd had smoke, inspected under the hood and noticed he had forgotten to reinstall the engine oil cap after changing the oil which (rather predictably) sprayed oil in the engine bay. he replaced the cap, kept driving and THEN the engine bay caught on fire.

except his thread of course didn't start with that. it was much more like OMG Ford made a dangerous product my hybrid caught on fire.

Yeah I remember that guy too.

There were several cases of Escapes with the 2.5L with engine fires that were document. That’s what led to the recall in the first place.

 

[NewMavIL]

I'm in the same boat this week. '22 hybrid XLT with 78k miles. Well maintained and all maintenance done early. Last week in 90 degree heat I got the engine save mode and warnings. Towed it to my dealer before driving it very much. I was given a loaner and they verified it was the check engine code for long block replacement under campaign 23N06. Ford knows this is happening enough that they are stocking the engine blocks in Detroit. Dealer said they'll have the engine block this week and begin work. The loaner hybrid Escape gets same MPG and looking like repair will be faster than expected.

 

[techparadox]

I know it's been a minute, but just a quick update for everyone following this thread to say... there is no update. Haven't heard from the dealership yet on the warranty or repairs. Granted, I know the wheels of bureaucracy spin slowly in the corporate world, but I would have hoped they'd at least have something for me in the week previous.

Until then, I'm still driving around in the loaner they gave me and trying to recover from the sticker shock every time I have to fill that dang thing up. You'd think they'd have something more compact than an Aviator/Explorer-tier vehicle for the customers to drive around while their stuff was in the shop.

 

[grumpyunk]

I was headed to work when I got the dreaded loss of power and "service vehicle" notice, immediately dropping into limp mode.

All well and good. But. Did you HEAR anything? All the rod bearing failures I have come upon make loud rapping noises when the engine is running. The noise seems to lessen with higher rpms, but does not totally go away. I have driven a couple hundered(CHI>W Lafayette IN) miles with a bad rod bearing in a Tempest 4 of 1960's vintage. Back roads about 45 MPH.
A college friend had a brand new Buick Special convertible. His dad owned a dealership. I had heard the engine start from cold, and it rapped for a few seconds right after startup. I told him the noise was likely excessive rod bearing clearance, and the engine would fail early. I think he got it fixed. I have other stories, but the long and short is that a failing rod bearing will do one of three things, in order of likelihood: rap and make noise at start, rap and make noise all the time, make louder noise or sieze the rod to the crankshaft and poke a hole in the block, sieze to the crankshaft and keep the crankshaft from rotating. Maybe not in that order.
IOW, you should be able to tell by noise you have a failing rod bearing. IMO. Unless things have changed on me. Which is possible.
I kinda sorta question the dealer Dx. They make more $$ on a full long block/short block swap than on fixing something little...
tom

 

[techparadox]

I kinda sorta question the dealer Dx. They make more $$ on a full long block/short block swap than on fixing something little...

You do know that the failure as described is fully covered by Ford under CSP 23N06 because of the known issue of this potential failure with the 21-23MY engines, right? They're not going to be making any money off of a long block swap on this if that's the route they decide to go with.

And for the record, I don't recall if I heard any knocking or other noises prior to the error code triggering. Nothing from the engine kicking on and off during normal/hybrid operation, nothing from a cold start. When it happened I had just passed someone who was traveling under the speed limit and I was about a mile down the road past them when the error kicked off. I'm assuming the sensors they have tuned to detect the potential failure picked up something that was off, and triggered limp mode as a safety measure rather than have the block potentially turn into an under-hood firebomb.

 

[HeyBales]

All well and good. But. Did you HEAR anything? All the rod bearing failures I have come upon make loud rapping noises when the engine is running. The noise seems to lessen with higher rpms, but does not totally go away. I have driven a couple hundered(CHI>W Lafayette IN) miles with a bad rod bearing in a Tempest 4 of 1960's vintage. Back roads about 45 MPH.
A college friend had a brand new Buick Special convertible. His dad owned a dealership. I had heard the engine start from cold, and it rapped for a few seconds right after startup. I told him the noise was likely excessive rod bearing clearance, and the engine would fail early. I think he got it fixed. I have other stories, but the long and short is that a failing rod bearing will do one of three things, in order of likelihood: rap and make noise at start, rap and make noise all the time, make louder noise or sieze the rod to the crankshaft and poke a hole in the block, sieze to the crankshaft and keep the crankshaft from rotating. Maybe not in that order.
IOW, you should be able to tell by noise you have a failing rod bearing. IMO. Unless things have changed on me. Which is possible.
I kinda sorta question the dealer Dx. They make more $$ on a full long block/short block swap than on fixing something little...
tom

The last recall about the issue updated the software to attempt to see the issue before it became bad - probably "listening" for exactly the same thing you mention, just before a human ear might hear it.
Then it throws 2 DTC's - dealership confirms that is indeed the issue or get's details back to Ford to confirm (DTC freeze frame data, to address your comment on not mistaking something small) - replacement process starts.

I wouldn't be shocked that to reduce warranty costs - they backtrack the ICE serial number back to some batch info just to confirm it might be in the range, confirm the freeze frame data.
Wondering if techs might be asked to take an extra drive to log some live data to send back.
Since all that is possible - I could see it being used prior to approving warranty replacement.

 

[grumpyunk]

I have not followed the 2.5l engine and rod bearing problems. Just saw the comment title and read... that said, they must use the knock sensor to hear the noise before it becomes bad enough to cause irreparable damage... I guess.
Strange it would make 'the noise' listened for while essentially cruising, rather than at startup or during heavy acceleration. The engines I "experienced" either had factory problems or were caused by serious owner neglect, of maintenance or just keeping oil in the sump.
OTOH, had a Jaguar with a rod knock only on starting from a standstill for a few seconds. Oil would slosh to the rear of the pan and starve the pump. The pickup was likely not engaged properly, and the pump was pulling from atop the windage tray.

 

[techparadox]

Back with an update on all of this. I know I kinda left everyone hanging, but after the dealership came back with a solution I wanted to drive it for a bit before reporting back, and I'm just now getting back to it over here.

So apparently the sensor tripping and the info (pictures, etc) the dealership sent to Ford corporate wasn't enough to satisfy them to warrant a full replacement of the block at this time. The mechanic I talked to explained that they said to replace the potentially failing parts, reset the sensors, and put it back into service, and if it fails again then they'd do the full replacement. Until that time or the mileage limit the engine will still carry the full replacement option on it.

I was floored that they came back with that. Mechanic said he wasn't happy about it either, because he would have preferred they replace it, on top of the fact that they now had a Maverick hybrid engine in their stock that was going to gather dust if mine didn't conk out in short order.

That was mid-October. I've been running around with it in its current state ever since and the engine seems to be handling everything with no issues, but that little worry is still in the back of my head that the engine is going to turn into a grenade of its own accord at some point. The only thing that seems to be an issue at this point is the hybrid battery's life seems to be a bit reduced. I don't know if it sitting unused on their lot for weeks caused any issues, but that's another problem for a different thread.

Thanks for coming back around if you got a notice on this thread. If anything does blow up in the near future I'll let everyone know.

 

[grumpyunk]

Did they mention the 'potentially failing parts' by name? I wonder what could be a potentially failing part that would cause engine knocking sounds(possibly overheard by the knock sensor, I do not know what is used to set the codes in question). DId you happen to see any pictures sent to corporate for review? Would be interesting to see what visual evidence was used to determine condition. It could be something other can connecting rod bearings, but I do not know what exactly causes the noise that sets the code.

 

[HeyBales]

Back with an update on all of this. I know I kinda left everyone hanging, but after the dealership came back with a solution I wanted to drive it for a bit before reporting back, and I'm just now getting back to it over here.

So apparently the sensor tripping and the info (pictures, etc) the dealership sent to Ford corporate wasn't enough to satisfy them to warrant a full replacement of the block at this time. The mechanic I talked to explained that they said to replace the potentially failing parts, reset the sensors, and put it back into service, and if it fails again then they'd do the full replacement. Until that time or the mileage limit the engine will still carry the full replacement option on it.

I was floored that they came back with that. Mechanic said he wasn't happy about it either, because he would have preferred they replace it, on top of the fact that they now had a Maverick hybrid engine in their stock that was going to gather dust if mine didn't conk out in short order.

That was mid-October. I've been running around with it in its current state ever since and the engine seems to be handling everything with no issues, but that little worry is still in the back of my head that the engine is going to turn into a grenade of its own accord at some point. The only thing that seems to be an issue at this point is the hybrid battery's life seems to be a bit reduced. I don't know if it sitting unused on their lot for weeks caused any issues, but that's another problem for a different thread.

Thanks for coming back around if you got a notice on this thread. If anything does blow up in the near future I'll let everyone know.

Kinda makes sense.

The sensors attempting to decide if it was the recall issue doesn't mean it really was.
And if those existing sensors had an issue - there ya go for that potential.

Curious what parts were replaced that caused the sensor data to throw the codes?
Work Order should mention it hopefully.

Ya - battery issue, likely was going to be a problem - if they left doors open for extended time without it being on a maintainer - that didn't help.
I'm sure they charged it up too.

But it won't turn into a grenade - that's the whole point of the limp mode when it thinks the data supports the issue happening - well before it does.
As you've experienced - that works. Apparently when it didn't need to!

 

[SafetyGuy]

Back with an update on all of this. I know I kinda left everyone hanging, but after the dealership came back with a solution I wanted to drive it for a bit before reporting back, and I'm just now getting back to it over here.

So apparently the sensor tripping and the info (pictures, etc) the dealership sent to Ford corporate wasn't enough to satisfy them to warrant a full replacement of the block at this time. The mechanic I talked to explained that they said to replace the potentially failing parts, reset the sensors, and put it back into service, and if it fails again then they'd do the full replacement. Until that time or the mileage limit the engine will still carry the full replacement option on it.

I was floored that they came back with that. Mechanic said he wasn't happy about it either, because he would have preferred they replace it, on top of the fact that they now had a Maverick hybrid engine in their stock that was going to gather dust if mine didn't conk out in short order.

That was mid-October. I've been running around with it in its current state ever since and the engine seems to be handling everything with no issues, but that little worry is still in the back of my head that the engine is going to turn into a grenade of its own accord at some point. The only thing that seems to be an issue at this point is the hybrid battery's life seems to be a bit reduced. I don't know if it sitting unused on their lot for weeks caused any issues, but that's another problem for a different thread.

Thanks for coming back around if you got a notice on this thread. If anything does blow up in the near future I'll let everyone know.

Thanks for the update!

It sounds like you have a good shop/dealership, which is great to hear.

If they are a good shop, you might want to give a shout out so others in your area know of your experience.

Andy

 

[jdiaz]

I know it's been a minute, but just a quick update for everyone following this thread to say... there is no update. Haven't heard from the dealership yet on the warranty or repairs. Granted, I know the wheels of bureaucracy spin slowly in the corporate world, but I would have hoped they'd at least have something for me in the week previous.

Something's going on related to that powertrain update that was used to identify engines "getting ready to fail" via the knock sensor. My 22 Hybrid has been in the shop four separate times in the last 12 months, and currently for almost 60 days (see https://www.mavericktruckclub.com/f...hybrid-failures-have-finally-broken-me.73959/) and I've been getting stonewalled by the service writer and the service manager on timeframe or repair plans. My truck has had all the bits of the powertrain replaced (including an engine) over the last 12 months and is still having an issue with the ICE and motor decoupling and not letting the truck go over 40mph.

Unbelievably frustrating. We already bought another car

 

[SafetyGuy]

Something's going on related to that powertrain update that was used to identify engines "getting ready to fail" via the knock sensor. My 22 Hybrid has been in the shop four separate times in the last 12 months, and currently for almost 60 days (see https://www.mavericktruckclub.com/f...hybrid-failures-have-finally-broken-me.73959/) and I've been getting stonewalled by the service writer and the service manager on timeframe or repair plans. My truck has had all the bits of the powertrain replaced (including an engine) over the last 12 months and is still having an issue with the ICE and motor decoupling and not letting the truck go over 40mph.

Unbelievably frustrating. We already bought another car

Dang, I am so sorry to hear of your truck issues.

This seems to be an example where this could be a candidate test to see if Ford is doing what the article said, in this other thread from today.

Andy

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