Hybrid engine performance question

[Deacon Blues]

From the videos I've watched 0 to 60 times for the hybrid and eco boost are not that far apart. Where the eco boost really shines, compared to the hybrid, is highway passing.

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[Chasdev]

[QUOT

 

[Yardtruck]

Having owned 3 Hyundai and Kia cars with their DCT, I have no idea what you're talking about. The problem with the DCTs are that they are above the comprehension level of most buyers of those types of cars. People get them and drive them like normal automatics, and that leads to accelerated clutch wear and odd behavior. Driven appropriately - decisive throttle inputs, absolutely no creeping, etc - they are very reliable and very satisfying.

As for the Santa Cruz, this is their new 8-speed wet clutch system. This hasn't even been out long enough to have established a pattern of issues.

The Santa Cruz forum has some threads on the DCT. None of them good. Their immediate issue appears to be a lack of QC...installing them w/o adequate fluid.

But after reading your post, I have no idea why Hyundai put a DCT in a vehicle designed for truck-like usage. "Absolutely no creeping..." Seriously? In a sports car...ok. But in a truck?

 

[fbov]

... you get the combined output of ICE + electric motor ...

All I've said is you can't double count.
ICE output that generates electricity does not count as road torque.

 

[fbov]

Have used K&N Filters...

As did I when autocrossing years ago. Turns out it did nothing for me.

I found this video enlightening. It leads me to conclude you might want a K&N in your EcoBoost, but only your EcoBoost, given the filtration tradeoff. They're a really bad idea in my hybrid.

From the videos I've watched 0 to 60 times for the hybrid and eco boost are not that far apart. Where the eco boost really shines, compared to the hybrid, is highway passing.

When reviewing the 2020 Escape, C&D found the opposite. Passing was 1/2 second difference, 0-60 and 1/4 mile are both 2 seconds difference. Those results are consistent with drivetrain strengths.
C/D
TEST RESULTS - Hybrid
Rollout, 1 ft: 0.4 sec
60 mph: 7.7 sec
100 mph: 21.8 sec
110 mph: 31.6 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 7.9 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.4 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 4.7 sec
¼-mile: 16.1 sec @ 89 mph
Top speed (C/D est): 120 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 167 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.83 g
C/D
TEST RESULTS - EcoBoost 2.0L
Rollout, 1ft: 0.3 sec
60 mph: 5.7 sec
100 mph: 15.5 sec
120 mph: 25.7 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.6 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.0 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 4.0 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.3 sec @ 96 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 126 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 168 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad*: 0.85 g
*stability-control-inhibited

 

[James L. Harrison]

Test...

 

[ProDigit]

Forgive me if this has been asked, and for not knowing but...

If I order the hybrid, and I'm not happy with the acceleration, or overall power, are there mods that can be done to make this more powerful? I'm not looking to spend tens of thousands on modifications, or an engine swap, but I know you can tune the ecoboost...

Best thing to do, is either a higher output motor (for the maverick, you'll also need a higher capacity battery), or install a turbo.
The Ford Fusion hybrid only has a 40HP motor, and a dog in acceleration, but in theory would perform much better if the 30kW (40HP) motor could be swapped out with a 40kW (60HP) or higher motor.
The Ford Fusion Energi, as well as the Maverick have an 80HP motor. The Energi is pretty peppy, but has a battery big enough to support larger size motors (100HP and up).
If the controller can handle these, is another question.
Meanwhile the FFH should be able to handle 60HP, and possibly 80HP, but the maverick is maxed out at 80HP.
The maverick also has a 1.1kWh battery, vs the 1.4kWh on the Ford Fusion Hybrid.

The best way to get better performance, is make sure you're not in 'eco' mode on the Ford Fusion Hybrid. It's dog slow. I always try to accelerate in normal mode, and only shift to eco mode when decelerating or braking, or when doing highway. Then the engine revs about 200RPM lower, which in turn gains me about 3-5% on fuel mileage (+1 to 2MPG/~40MPG).

 

[Hack]

The 155 lb-ft of torque is just for the ICE. I think I have heard it's at least around 177 with the electric motor.

Here's something I hadn't thought about. ICEs get their peak torque and horsepower at a particular RPM. The peaks can be broad, and with lots of gears and smooth shifts, you can stay near there. But can the hybrid, with the eCVT, theoretically, be at peak torque or horsepower any time you want?

For example, an electric motor can supply smooth torque at zero RPM. An ICE can only do that by slipping the clutch.

If someone knows, please jump in.

 

[Eagle11]

The Santa Cruz forum has some threads on the DCT. None of them good. Their immediate issue appears to be a lack of QC...installing them w/o adequate fluid.

But after reading your post, I have no idea why Hyundai put a DCT in a vehicle designed for truck-like usage. "Absolutely no creeping..." Seriously? In a sports car...ok. But in a truck?

Hyundai puts the DCT in many of their cars, I would assume it was a cost reason and to help it pass EPA rating. I prefer the DCT over a CVT anyday.

 

[ProDigit]

Here's something I hadn't thought about. ICEs get their peak torque and horsepower at a particular RPM. The peaks can be broad, and with lots of gears and smooth shifts, you can stay near there. But can the hybrid, with the eCVT, theoretically, be at peak torque or horsepower any time you want?

For example, an electric motor can supply smooth torque at zero RPM. An ICE can only do that by slipping the clutch.

If someone knows, please jump in.

The way Ford has made the ECVT, is that the engine is usually running at either optimal MPG range (~1200-1800RPM), optimal torque (2k RPM best fuel figures), optimal engine HP (with best fuel economy figures ~4-4.4k RPM), or peak HP (7k RPM, worst fuel figures).
The CVT of my Subaru is tied to the throttle, allowing the engine RPM to rise or fall depending on throttle position.
The eCVT of the Ford Fusion usually keeps the engine at those above mentioned RPM ranges, usually making the engine near to quiet, and using the generator to adjust the gear ratio (there are infinite amount of gear ratios).
So the engine RPM remains constant, the generator is recapturing some of that engine power, and storing it into battery, or sending it out to the asynchronous motor to aid in acceleration.
Thus the only 2 variables are the wheel output, and the generator speed.

On most gasoline engines, peak torque is a little earlier than peak HP;
Giving a generic example here:
Eg: peak torque is at 2400-3800RPM, vs 6500RPM for peak HP.
Shifting the engine past it's 6,5k RPM, will allow it to run at lower HP figures (too much internal resistance), but usually the redline isn't until 7,5k RPM; this due to the fact that while the engine makes less power at 7,5k RPM than at 6,5k RPM, but running a lower gear ratio allows the car to run more torque at that 7,5k RPM than at 6,5k RPM.

As far as shifting between peak torque and HP, on my subaru, it's just knowing where to hold the throttle at. As far as the Ford Fusion, it's similar. Holding the throttle at a specific place, while the electronics basically do half of the work.
If you need more than optimal TQ/HP, the electric motor will give a boost.
If you need less, the generator will tap off some of that power, or the engine will fall into a lower RPM category, using the motor to aid it's lower output.

As far as a FFH with eCVT from a stand still, the engine does need to rev up to the right RPM range, before it can give you optimal TQ or HP.
Initially the generator will either tap power from the engine, charging the battery, allowing the wheels to stand still while the engine is running, using the electric motor to do the start from stop (powered by the generator, which is powered by the engine).
Or, at higher speeds, the clutch closes, and the engine output will be more directly linked to the output shaft (with just the generator/motor adjusting the gear ratios).

 

[BlueSnake77]

As did I when autocrossing years ago. Turns out it did nothing for me.

I found this video enlightening. It leads me to conclude you might want a K&N in your EcoBoost, but only your EcoBoost, given the filtration tradeoff. They're a really bad idea in my hybrid.



When reviewing the 2020 Escape, C&D found the opposite. Passing was 1/2 second difference, 0-60 and 1/4 mile are both 2 seconds difference. Those results are consistent with drivetrain strengths.
C/D
TEST RESULTS - Hybrid
Rollout, 1 ft: 0.4 sec
60 mph: 7.7 sec
100 mph: 21.8 sec
110 mph: 31.6 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 7.9 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.4 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 4.7 sec
¼-mile: 16.1 sec @ 89 mph
Top speed (C/D est): 120 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 167 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.83 g
C/D
TEST RESULTS - EcoBoost 2.0L
Rollout, 1ft: 0.3 sec
60 mph: 5.7 sec
100 mph: 15.5 sec
120 mph: 25.7 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.6 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.0 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 4.0 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.3 sec @ 96 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 126 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 168 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad*: 0.85 g
*stability-control-inhibited

The 0-60 mph sounds right for the hybrid. However the 0-60 mph for the 2.0L ecoboost AWD is 6.4 secs. I've seen actual POV videos so that is confirmed. Not sure what the FWD ecoboost is, but it gets wheel spin on takeoff so I would guess slightly slower 0-60 mph, a little quicker with a rolling stop as less weight than the AWD.

 

[Dbarr]

Forgive me if this has been asked, and for not knowing but...

If I order the hybrid, and I'm not happy with the acceleration, or overall power, are there mods that can be done to make this more powerful? I'm not looking to spend tens of thousands on modifications, or an engine swap, but I know you can tune the ecoboost...

What is your build?.. I sure someone would like your spot if you want to change to Eco

 

[Atisko]

Forgive me if this has been asked, and for not knowing but...

If I order the hybrid, and I'm not happy with the acceleration, or overall power, are there mods that can be done to make this more powerful? I'm not looking to spend tens of thousands on modifications, or an engine swap, but I know you can tune the ecoboost...

I’m surprised at the one dimensional responses.
Find extremely light R-16 rims! Think of reducing your tire and wheel weight as much as possible. You can also find a way to trim 400 pounds off the vehicle this will help mpg, cornering, & and acceleration.

 

[clavicus]

The way Ford has made the ECVT, is that the engine is usually running at either optimal MPG range (~1200-1800RPM), optimal torque (2k RPM best fuel figures), optimal engine HP (with best fuel economy figures ~4-4.4k RPM), or peak HP (7k RPM, worst fuel figures).

Or, at higher speeds, the clutch closes, and the engine output will be more directly linked to the output shaft (with just the generator/motor adjusting the gear ratios).

Two things that may be relevant

1. You seem like you probably can interpret this better than I can and it seems like it backs up what you're saying: the optimal combustion efficiency range might be similar in the Ford eCVT. If we look at the Rav4 hybrid video from John Kelly it shows this diagram, showing an EPA study of the 2.5L engine used in some Toyota models, which I can only guess is going to be pretty similar to the 2.5L Duratech atkinson engine in the Maverick:

2. I'm not sure what you mean by "the clutch closes" at higher speeds. There is a torque-limiting clutch and vibration dampener but it *always* connected, unless it's slips due to some error in too much torque?

 

[BlueSnake77]

The Santa Cruz forum has some threads on the DCT. None of them good. Their immediate issue appears to be a lack of QC...installing them w/o adequate fluid.

But after reading your post, I have no idea why Hyundai put a DCT in a vehicle designed for truck-like usage. "Absolutely no creeping..." Seriously? In a sports car...ok. But in a truck?

If you get the Santa Cruz with the 2.5L non-turbo engine you get a conventional 8 speed automatic. The DCT is only with the turbo option. Looked at one on the dealers lot. Looks better in person I have to admit. It was the tan which looks more .... well tan than in pictures and videos. The Santa Cruz color choices are kinda lousy IMO. The blue is too light. The Sage green is nice though and will probably be the most popular choice with buyers.

As far as the hybrid, it is faster than my Ford Escape with the old duratec 2.5L 168 hp motor. 0-60 mph in about 9.2 secs. Still, I have no problems on the highway with passing other cars. If the Hybrid can do a mid 7 to mid 8 sec 0-60, well that is quite good. A Honda CR-V with the 1.5L turbo is about 7.5 sec 0-60 mph. The 1.5L turbo Escape about the same. Heck my 2006 Dodge Magnum SXT with a 250 hp 3.5L V6 did 0-60 mph in 7.5 secs and sure couldn't get no 40 mpg. Best I could get out of it was 25 mpg hwy, even using cruise.

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