2.0EB AWD 4K vs Hybrid AWD 4K towing test

[m5040]

I'm sure Ford has done plenty of testing to make sure it can tow 4k in plenty of different situations.

I bet some of that testing is having them out in the real world with some people towing 4k with a 2k rated truck and how many warranty claims were submitted.

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[The Real Maverick]

Good write up!
One more thing to add, if the test is in thin air this always favors a boosted engine. Also, the hybrids engine design has relatively low output for its size. This is fine when driven moderately or when the electric motor is used as a power adder as in passing or initial acceleration. When the battery is used up you effectively have the power and torque of sub 2.0L engine.

Not a very accurate write up.

Power is power. That's not really up for debate. And power is responsible for how fast you get your work done, but does not dictate how much work you can get done.

"When the battery is used up you effectively have the torque of [a] sub 2.0L engine" is an incorrect statement.

When towing or hauling, the 2.5L engine will generate electricity and send that electricity directly to the traction motor spinning the wheels. This, via the eCVT is a torque multiplier device. Like you putting a cheater bar on a wrench does not change how much power you have, but I think you'll agree it gives you more torque. It's just like having a battery for as far as gas lasts as the traction motor is concerned.

Now for PASSING or getting up that ramp you have BOTH! You have many kilowatts of power from the battery boosting you, almost like a turbo, along with the engine.

A really clever, really capable device.

 

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Not a very accurate write up.

When towing or hauling, the 2.5L engine will generate electricity and send that electricity directly to the traction motor spinning the wheels. This, via the eCVT is a torque multiplier device.

That power generation is not free though. You are using hp/torque to generate that electricity to charge the battery.. So if the system is doing that, then you don't have the full 161hp of the 2.5 to the wheels. The electrical motor is more useful when the battery is already at charge with minimal power being diverted from the 2.5 powerplant to charge the battery to run the motor. The Hybrid's powertrain is not a perpetual motion machine.

These tests will be useful; probably indicate that the Hybrid AWD 4K is sufficient for the majority of hauling scenarios. There will be scenarios where the forced induction of the more powerful EB engine will be more capable. However most buyers will not find themselves hauling/towing in those specific scenarios (long steady grades, high elevation).

I'm looking forward to the testing!

 

[The Real Maverick]

That power generation is not free though. You are using hp/torque to generate that electricity to charge the battery.. So if the system is doing that, then you don't have the full 161hp of the 2.5 to the wheels. The electrical motor is more useful when the battery is already at charge with minimal power being diverted from the 2.5 powerplant to charge the battery to run the motor. The Hybrid's powertrain is not a perpetual motion machine.

These tests will be useful; probably indicate that the Hybrid AWD 4K is sufficient for the majority of hauling scenarios. There will be scenarios where the forced induction of the more powerful EB engine will be more capable. However most buyers will not find themselves hauling/towing in those specific scenarios (long steady grades, high elevation).

I'm looking forward to the testing!

You're saying a pound is a pound is a pound which of course I agree.

While all pounds are pounds, some are more useful than others.

You can have a pound of air, a pound of steel, a pound of sugar, and so on.

Not all pounds are equally useful.

It turns out to be very useful to tow using electrical pound-feet, vs. internal combustion pound-feet.

 

[FischAutoTechGarten]

You're saying a pound is a pound is a pound which of course I agree.

While all pounds are pounds, some are more useful than others.

You can have a pound of air, a pound of steel, a pound of sugar, and so on.

Not all pounds are equally useful.

It turns out to be very useful to tow using electrical pound-feet, vs. internal combustion pound-feet.

Jack,
You sell the Hybrid's capabilities like a Snake Oil salesman... You just crack me up...

 

[chilicharger]

I will be very interested in watching hard towing tests on YT for a 4k Hybrid. I need great mpg for a daily and decent mpg for very long distance towing. This new AWD 4k hybrid seemingly can hit all those points.

 

[Phimosis]

What if I told you the peak torque of the hybrid is about the same as the EcoBoost? (Because it is 265 lb-ft gas and electric combined.)

What if I told you the Hybrid hums along at 3500 to 4000 rpm towing uphill and more like 2900 on flat? (Because it does.)

What if I told you the Hybrid has similar headroom for passing (from the battery)? (Because it does.)

One of the aspects of tow/haul mode is the hybrid keeps the battery charged, in reserve, for that last 20% of pedal input when you floor it to pass.

People VASTLY over-estimate horsepower requirements.

Very few UNDERSTAND what horsepower (power) is from a scientific standpoint.

High horsepower = fast acceleration.

There is NOT a strong correlation between horsepower and towing.

The vehicle with greater horsepower will have faster zero to 60 times and that's about it.

Once moving, at 60 mph, you need 60 horsepower to tow a small 4,000 lb. camper. 120 horsepower will get you up the steepest interstates at 6-7% grade.

Back country with 12% grade you'll be going slow, so not much wind resistance.

Hint: power is work / elapsed time

If you have more time (ex slower speeds) you need less power.

What if you told me the hybrid peak torque is the same as the ecoboost? Well, I’d tell you are wrong and that you don’t understand how this system works.

According to Motor Trend, hybrid electric motor is rated at 126 hp and 173 lb ft of torque. The gas engine is rated at 162 hp and 155 lb ft of torque. Does the system ever put out a combined 288 hp and 328 lb/ft of torque? Nope. The system maximum is 191 hp.

What is the system max torque? Ford doesn’t disclose that, but you can figure it out with math. A 126 hp electric motor is 92,673 watts. How long can the 1.1 kwh battery sustain a 92.6 kw discharge for? A second. Maybe two. A 92 kw motor would completely discharge a 1.1 kwh battery in 42.7 seconds. However, it would destroy the battery and would likely catch on fire after no more than 20 seconds of max discharge. As the voltage in the battery sags, under load, the amperage has to go up. As the amperage goes up, more electricity is lost to heat. Very quickly it would turn into a thermal runaway. And when you look at the combined system output of 191 hp, that is only 29 hp more than gas alone. So what gives? Why only 29 hp from the electric motor, when the electric motor is rated for 126 hp? Well, it is because the battery can’t handle it.

So what is actually happening is that the vehicle is engineered to deliver a maximum electric output of 300 amps at 72 volts, which is 21,600 watts, which is 29 hp.

So at 0 mph, the electric motor is making 0 hp and 173 lb/ft of torque. At 10 mph it is making ~15 hp and 173 lb/ft torque. At 20 mph it is making 29 hp and ~120 lb/ft torque. At 40 mph it is making 29 hp and ~60 lb/ft of torque At 80 mph it is making 29 hp and ~30 lb/ft of torque.

Towing at freeways speeds, like 65 mph, the electric motor is only going to be making ~40 lb/ft of torque. The combined system torque at freeway speeds is going to be ~190 lb/ft with the hybrid engine spinning up at 4,000+ rpm. This is kind of anemic compared to the ecoboost and reviewers will be quick to point it out.

You said the hybrid makes 265 lb/ft torque. I mean, it does, but only a brief moment when pulling away from a stop light. 0-20 mph. Anything faster than that and the torque number will rapidly start to fall off because the hybrid system is limited to 21.6 kw output. Typical EV style: instant torque off the line, but peters out at speed. Towing a 4K load, the hybrid would do well in town, starting and stopping, but not out on the freeway and especially not pulling mountain passes.

you also said that the hybrid has similar headroom to the ecoboost for passing, but it doesn’t. Even with the battery reserve, it still only makes 191 hp compared to the eco boosts 250 hp. Going up a mountain pass, that battery is going to be empty in 5 minutes and the performance gap will get that much wider.

There will likely be a subset of drivers that are happy to hypermile their hybrid while pulling a trailer at 45-50 mph on the freeway, but the majority of drivers (in general, not specifically maverick hybrid drivers) will not be satisfied with 45 mph and will be willing to pay for the extra gas to get the extra power and speed.

Here’s a personal example: I went from LA to southern Oregon to pick up an antique motorcycle that I acquired. I had a weekend to do it. 850 miles each direction. 1700 miles in 26 hours of driving. That’s a 65 mph average, including fuel stops, restroom and food stops. Most of the time, I had my cruise control on 80. On flat ground, the ecoboost would pull the 1,800 lb load at 80 mph in high gear at 2,200 rpm. Once you hit about 5% grade, it will downshift and hold 80 mph in 7th gear at 2,800 rpm. Tejon Pass, aka the Grapevine going to Bakersfield and Siskyou pass going into Oregon, it would pull every hill at 80 mph while staying under 3,000 rpm. I did those speeds because the truck could handle it. If I had a hybrid, I would have had to drive much slower, or else abuse the truck by revving it all the way to max rpm.

 

[Phimosis]

probably a little of it, but the main reason for that low rating is GM wants to sell you a higher trim truck. they top out at 6,000 pound towing.

What tops out at 6,000 lb towing? The Ranger tops out at 7,500 and the Colorado tops out at 7,700 lbs.

 

[Phimosis]

Once moving, at 60 mph, you need 60 horsepower to tow a small 4,000 lb. camper. 120 horsepower will get you up the steepest interstates at 6-7% grade.

For a 8,000 lb combined weight with camp trailer, with 42 sq/ft frontal area, 0.5 cD 60 mph and a 6% grade, I’m calculating 77 hp for the grade, 32 hp for rolling resistance and 44 hp for drag, or 153 hp to maintain steady 60 mph on a 6% climb with no winds, no A/C, no lights, no stereo.

153 hp in a Mav hybrid is 5,300 rpm.
153 hp in a Mav ecoboost is 2,890 rpm.

I can live with my engine pulling at 2,900 rpm for a half hour straight. But I would not tolerate an engine spinning 5,300 for a half hour straight. I would end up slowing down the hybrid to 45- 50 mph get engine speeds under 4,500 rpm.

 

[Gray Maverick]

Yeah not sure why, is that a limitation of the 4wd system in it?

So they can sell us the 4k package.haha

 

[Blinky]

That's not an unreasonable assumption. However I'd counter with:

How many miles / minutes do you plan to be pointed uphill?

30 minutes per weekend?
30 minutes per year?
30 minutes over the life of the truck?

If you don't have 30 minutes of patience, well, what does that say about you?

Well, if I'm camping in the mountains it's about 3 hours uphill.

I might buy an AWD hybrid as it would be great for regular driving but I'm definitely not patient enough to tow 4000 pounds on that trip with it. Since the camper I have access to is 2700 pounds plus some food, drinks and gear I'd borrow or rent a full size but that's a gigantic pain in the ass in it's own right.

I think offering the 4k package on the hybrid is a bad idea.

 

[Montana]

Well, if I'm camping in the mountains it's about 3 hours uphill.

I might buy an AWD hybrid as it would be great for regular driving but I'm definitely not patient enough to tow 4000 pounds on that trip with it. Since the camper I have access to is 2700 pounds plus some food, drinks and gear I'd borrow or rent a full size but that's a gigantic pain in the ass in it's own right.

I think offering the 4k package on the hybrid is a bad idea.

If the difference in RPM's during towing is that severe, I agree. If you a wasting tons of fuel when towing and stressing your drivetrain more, but taking it easy everywhere else and reaping the benefits of the Hybrid, then it kinda cancels itself out and you end up in the medium between where you could have just saved a couple grand and gotten the EB for the same results overall.

And I don't think patience has much to do with it vs. a vehicle on the road holding everyone else up because they can't drive efficiently with their current load. As a rural MT driver on single lane highways - that gets old. And it's dangerous as people then start passing 4 or 5 vehicles at once in dangerous spots etc etc you get the point. Most places it's a law that you have to pull over and let vehicles pass beyond a certain amount for those reasons. So I'd hate to turn that 30 minutes extra into an hour or two extra just trying to not be an a-hole on the road, pulling over every 10 miles. Sure would make those other scenarios that magically get left out of the equation to prove a point seem hellish - like cross country trips or literally anything over 30 minutes uphill I guess...

I dunno. TIL a pound is the same, but different.

 

[Phimosis]

I bought a (2024) Mav ecoboost fx4 with 4K towing because it is a “pleasure only” vehicle that will be used for towing, off-roading and camping, all situations where the higher torque and hp have advantages over the NA hybrid with cvt, at the expense of mpg. For my commuter car, 450 miles per week, I have done 180k miles in plug in Prius, 120k miles in a regular Prius and most recently, 100k miles in a Tesla. If I could only afford a single “do it all” car, I would definitely get the 2025 awd hybrid with 4K towing, knowing that I would just have to drive it a little easier when towing out here in the mountainous west, to keep the rpm down. In the flatter parts of the country, or when 90% of your miles are commuting., the awd hybrid is really going to shine.

 

[Ron Neal]

I don't tow often but when I do I am at the 4k limit so I ordered a 25 with the 2.0/4k and not going to take a chance on the Hybrid even though it can do the job but don't think it can do it better than the 2.0. This will be my 4th Maverick and the last 3 had the 2.0 EB/4k so see no need to change to save a few dollars per month on fuel plus the 25 Hybrid AWD/4k is about $1400 more for my configuration.

 

[Tom 71 Maverick 24]

I think we'll know a lot more about this soon - when a 4K Hybrid gets into the hands of the testers.

And I suspect that it will really be an issue based on where you intend to tow. Its obviously less of a drag pulling on flat or slightly hilly countryside compared to steeper hills in mountainous areas.

But we will soon see...

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