2,000 lbs Hybrid Tow Capacity?

[Rkbrumbelow]

Thinking about the hybrid drive train and towing. It is the long steep grades that will stress it.
Battery depleted and still climbing, all you have is a 2.5 liter engine hauling your load. And if it is at altitude, even less power. No manual transmission to gear down and just go slow over the pass.
Downhill could be worse. What happens when the battery is full and you are braking? I assume you are relying only on the brake pads. Again, no low gear to let the engine do the braking.
If the terrain is relatively flat and the battery is not stressed then hybrid set up is ideal for towing. The battery discharges on the uphills and charges on the downhills, improving your gas mileage and relieving any stress on the drivetrain.
If you want to talk high mountain passes and heavy loads, there is no replacement for displacement.

I addressed this in a post earlier, but according to Ford, once the primary battery is at capacity, the engine may turn on but not use fuel. This means it becomes an air compressor/heater and effectively an engine brake. Suck in the air, compress it, it gets hot (Work =-PdV) then exhaust it.

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[oljackfrost]

Thinking about the hybrid drive train and towing. It is the long steep grades that will stress it.
Battery depleted and still climbing, all you have is a 2.5 liter engine hauling your load. And if it is at altitude, even less power. No manual transmission to gear down and just go slow over the pass.
Downhill could be worse. What happens when the battery is full and you are braking? I assume you are relying only on the brake pads. Again, no low gear to let the engine do the braking.
If the terrain is relatively flat and the battery is not stressed then hybrid set up is ideal for towing. The battery discharges on the uphills and charges on the downhills, improving your gas mileage and relieving any stress on the drivetrain.
If you want to talk high mountain passes and heavy loads, there is no replacement for displacement.

You have regenerative braking on the down hills, saves the pads.

 

[fbov]

Thinking about the hybrid drive train and towing. It is the long steep grades that will stress it.... No manual transmission
Downhill could be worse. ...
If the terrain is relatively flat ...
If you want to talk high mountain passes and heavy loads, there is no replacement for displacement.

Sadly, this is untrue at each point.
- the transmission runs the engine faster when you ask for more power, and any road speed. How does that differ from downshifting?
- the electric drivetrain can absorb much of the downhill energy before you need engine braking.
- on flatter terrain, you avoid EV use uphill, so you can avoid engine use downhill.

You've described what's known as a "weak hybrid." Plenty of weak hybrids out there (Volvo just announces a line of them). Maverick is not "weak."

I addressed this in a post earlier, but according to Ford, once the primary battery is at capacity, the engine may turn on but not use fuel. This means it becomes an air compressor/heater and effectively an engine brake. Suck in the air, compress it, it gets hot (Work =-PdV) then exhaust it.

This is exactly what the C-Max did, but the engine braking was a deafening roar compared with other driving modes. The Escape has a 20kW resistive regen back-up instead. I've watched the regen drop from near 35kW to 20kW nearing the bottom of a long hill.

 

[fbov]

You have regenerative braking on the down hills, saves the pads.

That depends. Brake proportioning will use the rear brakes to balance front-axel regen braking, so rear brakes will wear out like normal cars. And there's a downside to not using the brakes - corrosion - for those of us who live with salt in the snow season.

 

[Rkbrumbelow]

Sadly, this is untrue at each point.
- the transmission runs the engine faster when you ask for more power, and any road speed. How does that differ from downshifting?
- the electric drivetrain can absorb much of the downhill energy before you need engine braking.
- on flatter terrain, you avoid EV use uphill, so you can avoid engine use downhill.

You've described what's known as a "weak hybrid." Plenty of weak hybrids out there (Volvo just announces a line of them). Maverick is not "weak."

This is exactly what the C-Max did, but the engine braking was a deafening roar compared with other driving modes. The Escape has a 20kW resistive regen back-up instead. I've watched the regen drop from near 35kW to 20kW nearing the bottom of a long hill.

As I do not yet know from personal hands on experience I am left to your presumptively superior knowledge. I am taking everything with a grain of salt (or in some cases a kilo) until I actually drive one or see a service manual. I just had to go to court because some idiot exhaust mechanic can’t count to 8 (spark plugs) and can’t remove 2 sensors, 2 u bolts, a hanger and 4 standard bolts then tried to charge me 400 dollars. I won btw. But you at least sound like what very well could be possible, so… I was going by Ford materials but as you say that was an older way /shrug

 

[Darnon]

That depends. Brake proportioning will use the rear brakes to balance front-axel regen braking, so rear brakes will wear out like normal cars. And there's a downside to not using the brakes - corrosion - for those of us who live with salt in the snow season.

I hear you there. My Fusion's rotors are all pretty trashy from WNY road salt despite the front pads still being plenty meaty (typically 80-90+ brake score). The rear pads are about done at 72k miles.

 

[vap0rtranz]

there is no replacement for displacement.

Except the 775 lb-ft Lightening but let's not digress. That's still a great motto that has been true. I'd just add that a well mated tranny is just as important, and that sounds like some of your point too.

Take my RV: a E450 SD 6.8L V10 that quickly looses uphill mountain speed if you force her into 3rd. And she wants to scream at >4k RPM uphill even if it means overheating. Downhill sounds like she's still screaming from engine braking. It's a bad mating that some people retune with programming to make it better. I just putz along at 45mph on steep grades. I plan to do the same with a much less powered i4 like this. I just don't plan on towing 14,000 lbs

 

[vap0rtranz]

Anyone else see that Alex did a tow test of the Rav4 Hybrid?

Points raised by folks here made me look around for more info. There's no tow tests for the Escape Hybrid but there's 2 done by Alex with the Rav4 Hybrid. The Rav4's hybrid specs are similar to Maverick Hybrid: 2.5l Atkinson cycle, 176 hp, 163 lb-ft, 219 hp combined.

Differences from Maverick: Toyota does AWD in hybrid-- they added a rear electric motor (MGR). 1750lb towing capacity -- not sure what this 250lb person difference comes from, and payload is bit less. And well ... Toyota -- it's not made by Ford

So the Rav's ICE + 1 additional electric motor make it a tad more powerful than the #s for the Maverick, but the Maverick's towing & payload #'s are tad better. (Makes me wonder how standardized the Davis Dam towing test is ...)

Alex's test with 2,000lb trailer:

1. maintained 60 mph
2. on 6.7% grade climb
3. 7,300 ft from 1,800 ft
4. did not overheat
5. could overtake on flats
6. got ~20MPG flats, ~9MPG on climbs

TL;DR - I was impressed by Alex sticking to the #s, and this test makes me think the Maverick Hybrid towing will be fine.

 

[fbov]

I was going by Ford materials but as you say that was an older way

Maybe not older, but different. PSD has been around since 1971. I'm speaking as an owner of the HF35 and HF45 drivetrains, PSD designs. There are many others, most using conventional transmissions. The Explorer Hybrid is one where a lot of conventional drivetrain wisdom would apply.

Toyota does AWD in hybrid-- they added a rear electric motor (MGR)

The comparable Ford is the AWD 3-motor Corsair Hybrid.

If you're not aware, one of the more effective (and so common) hybrid performance modifications is a grill block, to prevent air from passing through the grill. The vast majority of us never had to remove them, but some folks did see temperature rise on long hills at speed in the AZ summer.

 

[vap0rtranz]

If you're not aware, one of the more effective (and so common) hybrid performance modifications is a grill block, to prevent air from passing through the grill.

I didn't. I've added & removed air dams but will check out grill blocks. You have one on your Escape Hybrid?

 

[notfast]

If you want to talk high mountain passes and heavy loads, there is no replacement for displacement.

Yes and no. Power-to-weight ratio also comes into play as I explain further below...

Take my RV: a E450 SD 6.8L V10 that quickly looses uphill mountain speed if you force her into 3rd. And she wants to scream at >4k RPM uphill even if it means overheating. Downhill sounds like she's still screaming from engine braking. It's a bad mating that some people retune with programming to make it better. I just putz along at 45mph on steep grades. I plan to do the same with a much less powered i4 like this. I just don't plan on towing 14,000 lbs

My F-250 6.8L V10 (2 valve with PE heads) with the 4R100 transmission is no match for my teammate's F-150 5.0L HDPP while towing the same load up mountain passes (Grapevine and Cajon in Southern California).

Both trucks tow the load (3500lb car on a 2000lb open trailer) rock-solid steady, but not only is the F-150 about one ton lighter, it also has more HP and double the amount of transmission gears, while only being down 25 ft/lb of torque.

I duck behind a semi and climb up at 35-45mph. With the F-150, we cruise on up at 55-65mph with power and cooling capacity to spare. The F-250 has the power to hold 55-65, but the water temp goes over 220F and the engine is running over 4,000RPM.

A more fair race I think would be a Godzilla V8 Alumiduty with a 5.0L F-150 HDPP. But the power and weight numbers aren't looking much more favorable.

 

[Delbert]

Yes and no. Power-to-weight ratio also comes into play as I explain further below...



My F-250 6.8L V10 (2 valve with PE heads) with the 4R100 transmission is no match for my teammate's F-150 5.0L HDPP while towing the same load up mountain passes (Grapevine and Cajon in Southern California).

Both trucks tow the load (3500lb car on a 2000lb open trailer) rock-solid steady, but not only is the F-150 about one ton lighter, it also has more HP and double the amount of transmission gears, while only being down 25 ft/lb of torque.

I duck behind a semi and climb up at 35-45mph. With the F-150, we cruise on up at 55-65mph with power and cooling capacity to spare. The F-250 has the power to hold 55-65, but the water temp goes over 220F and the engine is running over 4,000RPM.

A more fair race I think would be a Godzilla V8 Alumiduty with a 5.0L F-150 HDPP. But the power and weight numbers aren't looking much more favorable.

I love this. Real truck talk.

 

[mrrk47]

Thanks to all of for the in depth analysis of hybrid towing, however I caved and switched to the 2.0 with 4k, better safe than sorry.

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