The "Mass" Problem of EVs

[commadorebob]

Note: This is meant to be educational, not to bash EVs.

With EVs becoming more popular, especially with Ford's upcoming EV platform, vehicles will start to weigh more for their size. The video below was sent to me by a buddy who works at the Alabama Department of Transportation. It was provided by the guardrail manufacturer.

“Normal” roadside hardware is rated at Test Level 3 (TL-3). TL-3 is cars and trucks impacting under various conditions at 100 kmh (~62 miles per hour). Bridge rails are usually rated TL-4, which is a single-unit box truck (think big U-Haul).

TL-5 is a tractor-trailer, and TL-6 is a tanker tractor-trailer. He doesn't believe Alabama has a TL-5 or 6 placement, but we probably need one at a few places.

The Rivian impact in the video was 25 degrees at 62 mph. From the side view, the guardrail barely slowed it down. It not only vaulted the concrete, but it also dragged like 5 or 6 pieces of it. Each piece is roughly 2000 lbs!

Generally, the manufacturer is required by the various state DOTs to have run and passed all required tests. Each test is like $100k to run, and most products require 6 or 7 tests. If they fail any of them, they MUST modify the product and restart testing from scratch.

This is a great explanation for those wondering why states charge an "EV" fee to make up for lost gas tax revenue. EVs simply have a heavier impact on road infrastructure. The standards will need to change, and the states will have to spend money to upgrade their safety equipment.

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[MikeS1942]

With EVs becoming more popular, especially with Ford's upcoming EV platform, vehicles will start to weigh more for their size. The video below was sent to me by a buddy who works at the Alabama Department of Transportation. It was provided by the guardrail manufacturer.

“Normal” roadside hardware is rated at Test Level 3 (TL-3). TL-3 is cars and trucks impacting under various conditions at 100 kmh (~62 miles per hour). Bridge rails are usually rated TL-4, which is a single-unit box truck (think big U-Haul).

TL-5 is a tractor-trailer, and TL-6 is a tanker tractor-trailer. He doesn't believe Alabama has a TL-5 or 6 placement, but we probably need one at a few places.

The Rivian impact in the video was 25 degrees at 62 mph. From the side view, the guardrail barely slowed it down. It not only vaulted the concrete, but it also dragged like 5 or 6 pieces of it. Each piece is roughly 2000 lbs!

Generally, the manufacturer is required by the various state DOTs to have run and passed all required tests. Each test is like $100k to run, and most products require 6 or 7 tests. If they fail any of them, they MUST modify the product and restart testing from scratch.

This is a great explanation for those wondering why states charge an "EV" fee to make up for lost gas tax revenue. EVs simply have a heavier impact on road infrastructure. The standards will need to change, and the states will have to spend money to upgrade their safety equipment.

That won't buff out!

 

[MaverickDragon]

With EVs becoming more popular, especially with Ford's upcoming EV platform, vehicles will start to weigh more for their size.

That's been the case for a while now.
The "impact" is not only to guard rails, but to the EV's tires and to the road itself.

While an EV car won't tear up the pavement as badly as a box truck or a semi, road wear is proportional to the vehicle weight. EVs generally weigh more than an equivalent fuel powered vehicle because of their large heavy batteries.

Many locations already impose an EV tax not only for infrastructure impact, but also because an EV doesn't pay any taxes on fuel.

Large EV trucks are also more likely to pay the HVUT (Heavy Vehicle Use Tax) which already applies to all vehicles based on weight.
EV trucks and cars already pay taxes in 41 states to offset their lack of paying any fuel tax.

 

[Mavster Mechanic]

An EV with 400 mile range; in general will weigh 500 to 1000 pounds more than the same vehicle powered by gasoline.

More, but not dramatically more.

That weight is significant in a crash.
That weight (100 to 200 pounds per tire) is not very significant to road wear.

 

[TheSEARCH]

It would be interesting to see that same barrier hit by a gas pick up the same size for comparison.

 

[Maverick123]

Not only guardrails, parking lots will have to be rethought for the weight of EVs and modern cars

Average vehicle weight is increasing (not just EVs but ALL cars are getting heavier) and many multilevel parking lots just weren't designed for that much weight per space

Hummer EVs weigh ~9,000 lbs, their battery pack alone is heavier than a Honda Civic

 

[Finnster]

Rivian truck vs F-250 weight looks about the same!

 

[Blue_Max]

I remember when the same type of people who hate on EVs now used to justify driving huge trucks and SUVs because their only criterion for crash safety was superior mass over whatever other vehicle they hit.

 

[Scott Asheville]

BEV weight is a problem slowly being resolved. All the trends on BEVs are headed in the right direction. The whole guardrail thing applies equally to American's obsession with huge vehicles as it does to BEV.

• Charging: faster, more available. Kind of struggling to keep pace with sales growth. We're adding 1.2 million plus BEVs a year in the USA.
• Safety: headed in the right direction, even with old tech. And inflammable solid state batteries will soon be a BEV bragging point. Commercials next decade will show ICE vehicles burning to the ground, while the BEV just sits there.
• Weight: This is interesting. It actually went backwards at the pack level because of the move to LFP with lower gravimetric density. But pack level innovations have driven pack weight back down. Motor and drivetrain innovations have slashed weight in that area, with improved performance too. Solid state promises to mostly eliminate the weight penalty, but that's still a few years away
• Maintenance: Depends on OEM. Can be a fraction of ICE. Can be multiples of ICE.
• Cost: Trending down fast. BEV is predicted to cost less than ICE before the end of the decade.
• Reliability: Depends on the OEM. Trending to ridiculous reliability.
• Insurance: Still an issue. Depends on the OEM, the owner, the model, the insurance provider.
• Tires: see weight.
• Maintenance: Depends on the OEM. In general, gasoline vehicle owners piss money out the tailpipe compared to BEV wonders, but sometimes the reverse is true.
• Choice: improving dramatically each year
• Gasoline cost vs electricity cost: Depends on location, how you charge.

Really, there's plenty of material for BEV fans and BEV haters both. It kind of depends on where you place your temporal point of reference. 2026 is very different than 2020. 2030 will very different from 2026.

 

[commadorebob]

To be clear, this isn't to hate on EVs but to show the things the industry have to take into account to ensure our roads stay safe. They had two options: make a stronger barrier or make lighter EVS.

It would be interesting to see that same barrier hit by a gas pick up the same size for comparison.

Buddy didn't provide video of a comperable ICE test. But that rail is designed to deflect everything below a box truck, which is what make the video wild to begin with.

 

[Tbone289]

I remember when the same type of people who hate on EVs now used to justify driving huge trucks and SUVs because their only criterion for crash safety was superior mass over whatever other vehicle they hit.

I'm pretty sure that attitude is not just something of the past.

 

[Blue_Max]

I'm pretty sure that attitude is not just something of the past.

That's why I said "the same type of people."

 

[Tbone289]

That's why I said "the same type of people."

OK. Do the same type of people who hate on the EVs now no longer justify driving huge trucks and SUVs because their only criterion for crash safety was superior mass over whatever other vehicle they hit? What caused them to change their mind? Are those same type of people driving smaller, less massive vehicles now?

My point is, "I remember", "used to justify" and "was superior" indicate to me that attitude was something in the past, and I'm not sure it is.

Maybe I've misunderstood your point completely, and I'll drop it because it's not important.

 

[Blue_Max]

OK. Do the same type of people who hate on the EVs now no longer justify driving huge trucks and SUVs because their only criterion for crash safety was superior mass over whatever other vehicle they hit? What caused them to change their mind? Are those same type of people driving smaller, less massive vehicles now?

My point is, "I remember", "used to justify" and "was superior" indicate to me that attitude was something in the past, and I'm not sure it is.

Maybe I've misunderstood your point completely, and I'll drop it because it's not important.

No, lots of people who hate EVs still favor big trucks and SUVs. My whole point was that the same people who used to praise one quality now criticize it because it applies to something they don't like. You can observe this same mentality in other aspects of life. The one-word version is "hypocrisy."

 

[Tbone289]

No, lots of people who hate EVs still favor big trucks and SUVs. My whole point was that the same people who used to praise one quality now criticize it because it applies to something they don't like. You can observe this same mentality in other aspects of life. The one-word version is "hypocrisy."

Yes, that is hypocrisy. The point I wasn't catching from your original statement was that the reason those same people are now criticizing EVs is because they are massive. I realize that criticism is the point of this topic, but I wasn't aware those were the people making the criticism.

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