Hybrid braking tips to maximize MPG?

[Mavster Mechanic]

I wondered what they did back then. Never saw that commented on.

3.7 mph pressure to all 4 wheels match - probably has to do with how hard being pressed too - I'm a gentle stopper.
11.8 mph pressure is starting to be applied. But not enough to be noticeable.
So somewhere between there is enough to matter.
About 2 mph in logs for regen to hit 0. Basically nothing before that.

Data snippet for the following final seconds before a stop. Normal mode.
Was going 40 mph with ICE on, starting coasting as foot went to brake and ICE went off.
Pressed brake enough to stay at higher end of regen but didn't need max braking, plenty of battery to fill. About 1.1 mm on brake.
At 11.8 mph brake pressure started being applied - still totally in regen area for my press.
Rear brake PSI higher than front, until about 3.7 mph and 1.6 seconds later, when they all merged. (curious why front right about 2x PSI as left until merge, straight road)
I've noticed this effect before, rear's given pressure just barely stronger than fronts.

Data attached. Graph pic. Red line showing amps going to battery (coast regen to increased brake pedal regen), with neg traction motor torque confirming regen.

Thanks. Nice to see.
I would like to see HV SOC on the same chart.

Also does brake pressure always go up at 11 mph or just in this case? Do you have multiple examples?

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[Alienenforcer]

I was (pre hybrid) in the practice of coasting up to the red light anyhow. Why race up to it? Now I do it more so. I do it on my bike so I don't have to put my feet down and shift more.

Exactly. I always find it interesting that folks hit warp 5 going to a red light, sliding in sideways like they are going to get a trophy for getting there first. .

 

[HeyBales]

Thanks. Nice to see.
I would like to see HV SOC on the same chart.

Also does brake pressure always go up at 11 mph or just in this case? Do you have multiple examples?

Got to 69.74 SOC by the time it was down to 2mph.

I'll have to open another log file to get an example of say my more normal gentle braking - this one was trying to max regen while not going into pads. I can also get my normal driving between 30-50% SOC.

 

[gzebrick]

ECO mode alone does not provide maximum regen. The "L" position does. ECO reduces the response speed for accelleration (especially in cruise) and also reduces the AC output if it can.

"L:" isn't a traditional low gear for the hybrid (there are no conventional gears in the ECVT). Low mode just puts the truck into max regen when you let off the gas. Almost like one-pedal driving on an EV (the Chevy Bolts have EXCELLENT one pedal modes) but word of caution, unlike pure EV one pedal modes there's no brake light as the truck decelerates. This might cause some issues. Low mode seems to have ZERO effect on engine speed/rpm etc. when NOT going off-throttle.

I'm not going to second-guess the Ford/Toyota engineers. I think ECO has the best chance of maximizing MPG. Looking at the charge/discharge amps using CarScanner I can see how much and when the electric drive is helping. The amp reading is more more informative than the meager dash displays from Ford. I've seen the EV motor supplement the gas engine at times where the dash didn't really show it, and also see where the battery is getting a charge during normal driving and not on the brake. It's an interesting mix but seems to be correct the truck (I assume it also takes into account charge level, battery temperature, amps, etc.).

I'l note that the engine seems to always run when the battery charge level is <34%. So if you are sitting in your driveway or at a stop and the engine starts, you've used up most of the battery charge.

I'll also note that the motor seems to kick in around 75-80 amps load on the battery but it might also use the trucks' inclinometer to run the engine when you're starting up a hill.

Lots of design decisions in play, but I say if you want max MPG, keep it in ECO and -maybe- put it in "L". I like Low since I don't have to try to modulate the brake to get max regen.. I just lift my foot, slow down, and brake when I need to..

 

[MakinDoForNow]

Good point - you know after the fact.
If you think you are max regen to the peg out - and receive 96% - then you were wrong.
But EV Coach would show it.

I'm curious if the 25MY EV Coach is as big for display or box range, despite being vertical.

In my 22 the precision is not available to see max regen without getting hydraulic. It appears that taking foot off go pedal at say 70 mph regen does go to max when "L" button is pushed. At least until some slower speed is reached (don't remember at about what speed). Would have to have your setup to verify no hydraulics and max regen is actually what happens but the needle appears to be at top of green and not in the white beyond the green. It is difficult to use all of the regen green and get 100% presumably because just an itsy bit of excess brake pedal is pressed.

 

[Mavster Mechanic]

ECO mode alone does not provide maximum regen. The "L" position does. ECO reduces the response speed for accelleration (especially in cruise) and also reduces the AC output if it can.

"L:" isn't a traditional low gear for the hybrid (there are no conventional gears in the ECVT). Low mode just puts the truck into max regen when you let off the gas. Almost like one-pedal driving on an EV (the Chevy Bolts have EXCELLENT one pedal modes) but word of caution, unlike pure EV one pedal modes there's no brake light as the truck decelerates. This might cause some issues. Low mode seems to have ZERO effect on engine speed/rpm etc. when NOT going off-throttle.

I'm not going to second-guess the Ford/Toyota engineers. I think ECO has the best chance of maximizing MPG. Looking at the charge/discharge amps using CarScanner I can see how much and when the electric drive is helping. The amp reading is more more informative than the meager dash displays from Ford. I've seen the EV motor supplement the gas engine at times where the dash didn't really show it, and also see where the battery is getting a charge during normal driving and not on the brake. It's an interesting mix but seems to be correct the truck (I assume it also takes into account charge level, battery temperature, amps, etc.).

I'l note that the engine seems to always run when the battery charge level is <34%. So if you are sitting in your driveway or at a stop and the engine starts, you've used up most of the battery charge.

I'll also note that the motor seems to kick in around 75-80 amps load on the battery but it might also use the trucks' inclinometer to run the engine when you're starting up a hill.

Lots of design decisions in play, but I say if you want max MPG, keep it in ECO and -maybe- put it in "L". I like Low since I don't have to try to modulate the brake to get max regen.. I just lift my foot, slow down, and brake when I need to..

Low has some disadvantages besides no brake lamps (unless you actually press the brake pedal at the same time.)
I rarely use it.

L heats up the battery twice as fast.
Maybe that's ok in winter.
That's bad in summer. Really, above 70°F.

L also will "spin up" the engine, without fuel quite often. Slight additional wear and tear on all the rotating engine parts.

Fast harsh high powered regen in L is not desirable by most standards.

Slow, gentle, lower wattage regen is ideal, provided you pay attention and brake earlier.

Braking from 60mph to 0 gently will put the same (or a tiny bit more) charge back into the battery with less heat on the generator components, and battery pack vs. braking vigorously in "L" setting.

Pro hypermilers have found slippery mode to be a slight advantage to MPG with basically no drawbacks, other than you have to press the brake pedal a little sooner. Do it for a week and it becomes natural.

Remember; regen is about watt-hours, (energy) not watts (power).

Regen lightly for 30 seconds puts the same charge into your battery as regen strongly for 15 seconds. All else being equal.

I drive full time in slippery. Have for three years now. It's personal preference. But hard to beat my MPG in 50/50 city/highway.

(Modes much more effective in city conditions, and have little effect on steady speed driving. Except tow mode while actually towing.)

Some people say "just drive". And you can. And you will net very close to the window sticker values.

Play the truck like a fine instrument and save 25% 35% even 40% additional fuel.

 

[gzebrick]

I haven’t noticed any change in hybrid engine rpm with the low mode, so I don’t think there is any spinning up of the engine as there’s not a traditional gearbox on the hybrid.

Max regen is the same as using the brake coach and getting a perfect score. You get full regen without having to feather the brake pedal. I don’t think that’s an issue otherwise Ford wouldn’t encourage it.

Ive not tried slippery mode for normal driving but I would like to know what it does compared to eco. I know eco adds an acceleration ramp to the throttle and also slows down the ac. I thought slippery mode only effected the power transfer in the drivetrain letting it drive the rear wheels under lighter conditions. Do you know how specifically does slippery mode improve mpg?

 

[h1k3rb]

Low has some disadvantages besides no brake lamps (unless you actually press the brake pedal at the same time.)
I rarely use it.

L heats up the battery twice as fast.
Maybe that's ok in winter.
That's bad in summer. Really, above 70°F.

L also will "spin up" the engine, without fuel quite often. Slight additional wear and tear on all the rotating engine parts.

Fast harsh high powered regen in L is not desirable by most standards.

Slow, gentle, lower wattage regen is ideal, provided you pay attention and brake earlier.

Braking from 60mph to 0 gently will put the same (or a tiny bit more) charge back into the battery with less heat on the generator components, and battery pack vs. braking vigorously in "L" setting.

Pro hypermilers have found slippery mode to be a slight advantage to MPG with basically no drawbacks, other than you have to press the brake pedal a little sooner. Do it for a week and it becomes natural.

Remember; regen is about watt-hours, (energy) not watts (power).

Regen lightly for 30 seconds puts the same charge into your battery as regen strongly for 15 seconds. All else being equal.

I drive full time in slippery. Have for three years now. It's personal preference. But hard to beat my MPG in 50/50 city/highway.

(Modes much more effective in city conditions, and have little effect on steady speed driving. Except tow mode while actually towing.)

Some people say "just drive". And you can. And you will net very close to the window sticker values.

Play the truck like a fine instrument and save 25% 35% even 40% additional fuel.

Since I live outside a small town there is very little city driving in my daily routine, mostly back roads at 45-55mph and interstates. Regardless, mpg is so good with hybrids these days that unless you're hot-rodding it all the time, these hypermiling tactics bump up against the 'law of diminishing returns'.

(Juggling also comes to mind - you can spend a lot of time and effort to get really good at it, but what's the point?)

Real world hypermiling savings are not completely negligible but for the amount of effort involved (not to mention the immense frustration caused by the 'entitled type' of hypermilers) the return is just pennies in the scheme of things. Plus, if your main concern is every 0.5 mpg, you've just sucked all the joy out of driving. YMMV ;-)

No doubt you and others will carry on, just my 1/2 cent.

 

[Mavster Mechanic]

I haven’t noticed any change in hybrid engine rpm with the low mode, so I don’t think there is any spinning up of the engine as there’s not a traditional gearbox on the hybrid.

Max regen is the same as using the brake coach and getting a perfect score. You get full regen without having to feather the brake pedal. I don’t think that’s an issue otherwise Ford wouldn’t encourage it.

Ive not tried slippery mode for normal driving but I would like to know what it does compared to eco. I know eco adds an acceleration ramp to the throttle and also slows down the ac. I thought slippery mode only effected the power transfer in the drivetrain letting it drive the rear wheels under lighter conditions. Do you know how specifically does slippery mode improve mpg?

Speaking of 2022-2024 FWD hybrids:

Low will take the truck out of pure EV mode and spin the engine at 2500 to 3500 RPM without fuel in many cases.

This is wear and tear compared to not spinning at all.

Higher probability of this the higher your speed.

Higher probability of this the higher the HV battery state of charge.

Higher probability of this the steeper the downgrade.

Almost certain to happen if you are coasting and accelerating due to being on a downgrade.

Nearly certain to happen if you coast in L longer than 10 or 15 seconds.

50% probable to spin up the engine if the truck senses you are maintaining speed but not slowing (or not slowing as quickly as it thinks you should) due to downgrade (or really strong tail wind! )

I would say Ford allows it.
I would not say Ford "encourages" it.
That would be a liability for them.
(No brake lights lit while slowing; sometimes dramatic slowing, example using L on an UP-grade.)

Slippery is the gentlest of all modes.
Gentle acceleration profile.
Gentile braking / regen profile.
Designed to aid with your avoiding slip & slide on icy roads.

Lower regen (and extensive coasting) is key to super high MPG.

When I want zero regen, I'll coast in N sometimes. This truck coasts for miles, free of charge, when road conditions allow it.

Slippery mode is next best thing to freewheel coasting. Once you get used to it, it feels like you have a tailwind pushing you full time. Yields highest MPG with least effort.

Side effect of less transmission drag is: your brake lights will come on SOONER because you learn to tap the brake pedal sooner giving people behind you MORE reaction time. Opposite of L mode.

9 out 10 people who use slippery every day for full tank to get used to it say it is their favorite mode now. But you have to give yourself time to adjust.

 

[Mavster Mechanic]

Since I live outside a small town there is very little city driving in my daily routine, mostly back roads at 45-55mph and interstates. Regardless, mpg is so good with hybrids these days that unless you're hot-rodding it all the time, these hypermiling tactics bump up against the 'law of diminishing returns'.

(Juggling also comes to mind - you can spend a lot of time and effort to get really good at it, but what's the point?)

Real world hypermiling savings are not completely negligible but for the amount of effort involved (not to mention the immense frustration caused by the 'entitled type' of hypermilers) the return is just pennies in the scheme of things. Plus, if your main concern is every 0.5 mpg, you've just sucked all the joy out of driving. YMMV ;-)

No doubt you and others will carry on, just my 1/2 cent.

I always go the speed of the natural flow of traffic (ok, 98% of the time). 1% I drift slower. And 1% I drive like a bat out of hell.

It may surprise you that I exceed 80 MPH on the interstate at least 2 or 3 times a day.

But MOST of my miles are at 35 to 45 mph. That's the speed of those roads.

I get ~ 33 MPG for a few miles a day and ~55 MPG for most of my miles per day.

My tanks last 700+ miles every week I'm not towing. And I'm under 20 MPG when towing.

Savings are real. And you can hypermile without going under the speed limit. I do it every day.

Full Disclosure: I have 20 years of practice with Ford's hybrids. Back in 2006 I taught a few Ford design engineers how to hypermile in Dearborn, MI.

With the FWD Escape Hybrid on the official city cycle test track, design engineer's best was 48 MPG with a year of practice. I was there one day for a one-day meeting. My first time on their city cycle test route in their heavily weighted test mule with 4 passengers in the car, I net 54 MPG. Fun to see their jaws drop.

 

[Mavster Mechanic]

It is fascinating the 2005 FWD Hybrid Escape and the 2024 FWD Hybrid Maverick are nearly the same vehicle.

Drivetrain wise. MPG wise.

2024 = slightly higher MPG
2024 = slightly more HP

Size, weight, performance gains, not remarkable in 20 years.

2022-2024's have more creature comforts and arguably better safety enhancements.

Worth mentioning there was available hybrid AWD in 2005.

 

[rtphokie]

Also remember that coasting to a stop can really increase MPG, especially in areas with little traffic. Think of your momentum as a second battery that you charge every time you press the accelerator, whether using the ICE or electric motor.

 

[gzebrick]

Fwiw my observations are on my 25 lariat AWD hybrid. Definitely no change in engine rpm ( displayed rpm in real time via obd2 and car scanner) when engaging L mode and on throttle. Seems to only affect regen.

The expected use case is when you’re going down a long hill and don’t want to ride the brakes that much.

 

[HeyBales]

I haven’t noticed any change in hybrid engine rpm with the low mode, so I don’t think there is any spinning up of the engine as there’s not a traditional gearbox on the hybrid.

Max regen is the same as using the brake coach and getting a perfect score. You get full regen without having to feather the brake pedal. I don’t think that’s an issue otherwise Ford wouldn’t encourage it.

Ive not tried slippery mode for normal driving but I would like to know what it does compared to eco. I know eco adds an acceleration ramp to the throttle and also slows down the ac. I thought slippery mode only effected the power transfer in the drivetrain letting it drive the rear wheels under lighter conditions. Do you know how specifically does slippery mode improve mpg?

Allows the driver to reach more coasting miles in EV mode possibly easier.

Indeed reduces Go pedal response - even more than Eco.
AC - not noticed a change.

Regen - a tad less aggressive than Normal, but for a wider range.
Meaning to hit the aggressive regen to really slow down faster - you are left with the bottom 15-20% of regen range.
For me, that aspect with my driving scenario's, causes me to dig into the pads a whole lot easier.
It does effect the cruise control response to speeding back up though - again possibly allowing staying in EV mode more often when it's possible.

Despite feeling like I've trained my foot to do well in Normal mode and toe that EV power line pretty good so that Eco or Slippery doesn't add much for me - I can't seem to train it for that braking aspect. Considering how little physical range there is in brake pedal, I just may need more time constantly using it - but for my stop & go traffic, just not useful.

I think the ICE spinup comment is regarding the fact if Low mode is causing you to always be near the 70% max SOC on HVB - you've increased the potential that the ICE is going to be spun up to waste that regen since no where for it to go.
That just happens.
True that braking in regen is no different than amount of captured by Low mode, but for some reason I do end up with slightly better fill in Low.
Probably because I'm trying to toe the line for true coasting, but dipping into regen more frequently, punching it too hard to get some speed back, and now into hybrid with ICE on, ect.

 

[Bob zimmerman]

I wondered what they did back then. Never saw that commented on.

3.7 mph pressure to all 4 wheels match - probably has to do with how hard being pressed too - I'm a gentle stopper normally, but this was attempting max regen, but never going over.
11.8 mph pressure is starting to be applied. But not enough to be noticeable.


Data snippet for the following final seconds before a stop. Normal mode.
Was going 40 mph with ICE on, starting coasting as foot went to brake and ICE went off.
Pressed brake enough to stay at higher end of regen but didn't need max braking, plenty of battery to fill. About 1.1 mm on brake.
At 11.8 mph brake pressure started being applied - still totally in regen area for my press.

Alright, that answers my question.
I was not looking for anecdotal evidence. Your graph and data proved to me that while my truck says I’m still in 100% regenerative mode, the trunk in fact is applying the physical brakes!
Bob

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