Overlooked Subwoofer Problem(especially with hybrid)(Nerd Stuff)

[Slick-rides]

I think we might be overlooking something here. How is your input to the amplifier set up? Are you using high level inputs? Which speaker channels did you tap into? Are you using any type of line out converter? I think there's an issue between the source and the amp causing your problem.

Using high level inputs directly to the amp. Used both the front and rear speaker channels to retain the factory fade function, etc. The amp creates the sub output from all 4 input channels. I bought a custom harness that simplified the hook up and pretty much made it plug and play.

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[Slick-rides]

Sorry for temporarily taking over this thread, I should of made my own.

One weird thing is some FM radio stations sound real good, compared to me using a USB drive with WAV files on it. Why would that be? I guess if a DSP or Kicker key is setup using the USB as the test file source it would be tuned to sound good using that input .

I'm old school and miss having a tape or cd deck.

 

[Aaron F]

Hmm. I was thinking the rear speakers might have been tapped, which don't give a full range signal from my understanding. Is there any chance the sub polarity is reversed? Try switching it and see if the sound improves or see if anyone you know has another small sub box you can connect to just to test.

 

[Aaron F]

Hmm. I was thinking the rear speakers might have been tapped, which don't give a full range signal from my understanding. Is there any chance the sub polarity is reversed? Try switching it and see if the sound improves or see if anyone you know has another small sub box you can connect to just to test.

 

[AVC]

The XL and XLT speaker circuits (both front and rear) have from the factory a LARGE ~70Hz boost and then rapidly rolloff below that to prevent over-excursion of the factory speakers. The factory rear speakers also have a series capacitor to limit LF excursion. That capacitor is irrelevant to the aftermarket sub install, as you are tapping the rear speaker circuits before the caps.

The combination of the 70Hz boost and rolloff make an aftermarket sub VERY difficult to blend in with the factory speakers.

I strongly recommend using Forescan to set the audio system EQ to "FLAT", which eliminates the 70Hz boost and the fast rolloff. The aftermarket sub then gets a well behaved signal from the rear speaker taps.

 

[colinl]

I strongly recommend using Forescan to set the audio system EQ to "FLAT"

right... but if anyone does this and does not have amps with electronic crossover on their speakers, or appropriate passive crossovers, your speakers are going to start seeing full range and they will not live long.

the factory processing can be annoying when you start adding amps, replacing speakers, etc. but the default values coming out of the ACM are done with a purpose.

 

[Slick-rides]

The XL and XLT speaker circuits (both front and rear) have from the factory a LARGE ~70Hz boost and then rapidly rolloff below that to prevent over-excursion of the factory speakers. The factory rear speakers also have a series capacitor to limit LF excursion. That capacitor is irrelevant to the aftermarket sub install, as you are tapping the rear speaker circuits before the caps.

The combination of the 70Hz boost and rolloff make an aftermarket sub VERY difficult to blend in with the factory speakers.

I strongly recommend using Forescan to set the audio system EQ to "FLAT", which eliminates the 70Hz boost and the fast rolloff. The aftermarket sub then gets a well behaved signal from the rear speaker taps.

I did use Forscan and set to Flat EQ. Didn't know about the 70hz boost which might explain why before setting to flat it seemed like I had a little more low end since I listen to rock music without booming bass

 

[AVC]

The compromise Ford (or Harmon, I gather) made was to bump output at 70 to 100Hz (the thumpy part of music, which the average Joe is attracted to), which increases the excursion roughly 6x over "flat", for the door speakers. In exchange, Harmon had to rapidly rolloff the LF below 55Hz, so the door speakers wouldn't be destroyed; excursion RAPIDLY increases as frequency gets lower. In doing that you loose the really low LF that is needed for a system to actually sound "hifi".

When you set the Forescan EQ to "FLAT", you loose the substantial 70Hz boost (some 8 dB) but get the extension down to 25 Hz or so. The result is that the door speakers have a MUCH easier life. You do need to bump the input gain on your aftermarket sub a bit to get the LF "haystack" back, with the benefit of the haystack being much more broad and extended.

Also to note that most aftermarket 5" to 6.5" "door" speakers have MUCH poorer LF response than the factory speaker, as the factory speakers are typically designed to be high compliance, low Fs, so as to not to require massive amp boosts (i.e. more amp power) that low compliance speakers would need for the same output.

Successful door speaker replacements--ones that people are pleased with LF response out of the cardboard--tend to have Fs of 55Hz or lower. They are difficult to find in the "car speaker" section, but more common in the speaker builder section from say Parts Express.

 

[colinl]

When you set the Forescan EQ to "FLAT", you loose the substantial 70Hz boost (some 8 dB) but get the extension down to 25 Hz or so. The result is that the door speakers have a MUCH easier life.

Bold is where you went wildly astray.

I'm really not sure how elementary to begin with my counterpoint. A 6.5 midrange can technically play 25hz at a very low spl which can be easily seen on the frequency response curve for the speaker and the thiele-small parameters for the speaker, especially free air resonance.

6.5 subwoofers exist, I get it. They have long excursion, huge magnets, high power handling voice coils. A 6.5 mid for a component system is not a subwoofer. It cannot play to 25hz or anywhere near that at moderate to high volume without damaging it due mainly to over excursion.

You need a high pass filter on a 6.5 midrange at least in the 50-60hz range if it has a very steep slope like 48db/octave or typically many amplifiers with a 24db filter only go down to 80-100hz high pass.

I said this in a lot fewer words previously, but I had to come back to it because you again assert the door speakers can play 25hz. They cannot, for long.

 

[AVC]

Bold is where you went wildly astray.

I said this in a lot fewer words previously, but I had to come back to it because you again assert the door speakers can play 25hz. They cannot, for long.

I will volunteer that I have been practicing electro and psycho acoustical analysis and system design, professionally for 40 years, so pretty sure this won't shatter my dim brain....

The XLT door speakers appear to have an F3 of 30Hz or so (I didn't measure exactly) in "flat eq" mode. They are indeed capable of reproducing "playing" 25Hz and lower, albeit, as you mention, not very loudly--the acoustic output of the driver drops very rapidly below 30 Hz, and the power output of the XLT ACM (amplifier) is quite modest. At max volume on my phone and head unit, the door speakers produce quite a bit of doubling (well beyond their linear excursion range), but don't appear to be in any distress, even at 20Hz. In other words, the system is self-limiting.

If you drove the factory door speakers "flat eq" with a larger aftermarket amplifier, and hip-hop, yep they'd be toast in seconds.

So, I stand my original comments about the door speakers within the constraints of the factory ACM; they play more linearly (less excursion-induced distortion), at least at the volumes and music I listen to, without the 70Hz boost, and some bonus extension, by virtue of using "flat eq" in the ACM. And, I suspect, for the vast majority of XL/XLT owners, the door speakers will remain happy until time and heat compromise their mechanicals.

 

[rallyshark]

I will volunteer that I have been practicing electro and psycho acoustical analysis and system design, professionally for 40 years, so pretty sure this won't shatter my dim brain....

The XLT door speakers appear to have an F3 of 30Hz or so (I didn't measure exactly) in "flat eq" mode. They are indeed capable of reproducing "playing" 25Hz and lower, albeit, as you mention, not very loudly--the acoustic output of the driver drops very rapidly below 30 Hz, and the power output of the XLT ACM (amplifier) is quite modest. At max volume on my phone and head unit, the door speakers produce quite a bit of doubling (well beyond their linear excursion range), but don't appear to be in any distress, even at 20Hz. In other words, the system is self-limiting.

If you drove the factory door speakers "flat eq" with a larger aftermarket amplifier, and hip-hop, yep they'd be toast in seconds.

So, I stand my original comments about the door speakers within the constraints of the factory ACM; they play more linearly (less excursion-induced distortion), at least at the volumes and music I listen to, without the 70Hz boost, and some bonus extension, by virtue of using "flat eq" in the ACM. And, I suspect, for the vast majority of XL/XLT owners, the door speakers will remain happy until time and heat compromise their mechanicals.

I'd be absolutely shocked if the door speakers have an F3 of 30hz, flat EQ or not. F10 of 30hz is more like it. If they had an F3 of 30hz, project builders would be clamoring to acquire ford Maverick door speakers for their next DIY project, lol. The factory non-B&O door speakers are doing all they can to make 45-50hz, which is the real thumpy part of the music. That's where a good kick drum is centered. 70-100hz bump does give the illusion of the speakers having more bass than they do, but that ain't the "thumpy" part. I know, we're getting into the weeds about it anyway.

I'm definitely with colinl on this one. While they may survive with FLAT EQ is some cases, I think they'd poop themselves sooner rather than later. Long story short, the factory door speakers need to go, regardless of the FLAT EQ setting. Even if they do survive, it won't change the fact that they sound like crap. They could sound better if crossed over, but still not great. I don't mean it in a smart ass way or anything like that, but I think your frequency capability statements are a good 20-30hz too low. Either way, we've wandered off the path of the original intent of the thread and gotten into the weeds.

I think we can all agree that the FLAT EQ setting is good thing is the sub department, and for giving a more balanced sound

 

[colinl]

but don't appear to be in any distress, even at 20Hz. In other words, the system is self-limiting.

so, let's think on that a moment. how do you suppose this might be achieved? specific to Ford audio, what's in the truck that is doing this?

(yes, I know the answer. for some reason, I'm deciding to engage in this ridiculous discussion..)

 

[AVC]

I'd be absolutely shocked if the door speakers have an F3 of 30hz, flat EQ or not. F10 of 30hz is more like it. If they had an F3 of 30hz, project builders would be clamoring to acquire ford Maverick door speakers for their next DIY project, lol. The factory non-B&O door speakers are doing all they can to make 45-50hz, which is the real thumpy part of the music. That's where a good kick drum is centered. 70-100hz bump does give the illusion of the speakers having more bass than they do, but that ain't the "thumpy" part. I know, we're getting into the weeds about it anyway.

I'm definitely with colinl on this one. While they may survive with FLAT EQ is some cases, I think they'd poop themselves sooner rather than later. Long story short, the factory door speakers need to go, regardless of the FLAT EQ setting. Even if they do survive, it won't change the fact that they sound like crap. They could sound better if crossed over, but still not great. I don't mean it in a smart ass way or anything like that, but I think your frequency capability statements are a good 20-30hz too low. Either way, we've wandered off the path of the original intent of the thread and gotten into the weeds.

I think we can all agree that the FLAT EQ setting is good thing is the sub department, and for giving a more balanced sound

Oh, then please measure F3 of the doors speakers in "flat EQ" and post that, and see how it differs from my quick measurement.

Note than one can easily have 30 Hz F3 (or even a 20Hz F3) with a pair of headphones or earbuds with miniscule drivers. Could I drive a vehicle cabin or room with those drivers with the same extension and SPL, obviously no. Why so?

Creating an F3 of 30Hz at modest SPL and in the cabin volume of the Maverick--easy, and using "cheap" drivers. DId the Ford designers choose that? No, they instead opted for more SPL from 55Hz and up and healthy "thump" boost, where they thought the demographic would most appreciate it.

That Ford even created an accessible "flat eq" mode is suprising, but obviously beneficial.

As for people clamoring for those door speakers, while they have good LF extension (loose suspensions), they don't/wouldn't have copious overall SPL output, given the compactness of the mechanics, and the limited thermal capacity of the voice coil. In other words, they were purpose designed and built for this combination of enclosed door volume, cabin volume, desired sensitivity and impedance, limited bandwidth (supplemented by dash speakers), limited ACM power and modest SPL requirements.

Could someone create a content scenario of driving the door speakers to their death with the factory ACM, using the factory EQ setting? Sure. By moving head unit "bass" to max boost? Sure.

Are the door speakers at more risk just by using "flat eq"? Nope. All factors considered, "flat eq" is less stressful than factory eq.

 

[rallyshark]

Oh, then please measure F3 of the doors speakers in "flat EQ" and post that, and see how it differs from my quick measurement.

Note than one can easily have 30 Hz F3 (or even a 20Hz F3) with a pair of headphones or earbuds with miniscule drivers. Could I drive a vehicle cabin or room with those drivers with the same extension and SPL, obviously no. Why so?

Creating an F3 of 30Hz at modest SPL and in the cabin volume of the Maverick--easy, and using "cheap" drivers. DId the Ford designers choose that? No, they instead opted for more SPL from 55Hz and up and healthy "thump" boost, where they thought the demographic would most appreciate it.

That Ford even created an accessible "flat eq" mode is suprising, but obviously beneficial.

As for people clamoring for those door speakers, while they have good LF extension (loose suspensions), they don't/wouldn't have copious overall SPL output, given the compactness of the mechanics, and the limited thermal capacity of the voice coil. In other words, they were purpose designed and built for this combination of enclosed door volume, cabin volume, desired sensitivity and impedance, limited bandwidth (supplemented by dash speakers), limited ACM power and modest SPL requirements.

Could someone create a content scenario of driving the door speakers to their death with the factory ACM, using the factory EQ setting? Sure. By moving head unit "bass" to max boost? Sure.

Are the door speakers at more risk just by using "flat eq"? Nope. All factors considered, "flat eq" is less stressful than factory eq.

I'm trying to be polite about this, and I have no interest in a whizzing contest or proving I'm right. However, wrong information on a forum can lead people with less knowledge down the wrong path and isn't helpful to them. Its in that respect that I'm speaking here.
You went wrong is when you said F3 of 30hz, and that's when I started paying attention. You do realize what F3 means, right? You're saying the output only goes down 3db at 30hz, which is most certainly not true. I didn't save my calibrated mike measurements, because they were pointless with the factory speakers, but my memory is pretty good, and by 30 hz they were down more than 10db at lower volume levels. I was being generous with the F10 comment. My measurements were taken from the driver's seat at many volume levels. While the factory speakers did do better at lower volume, the drop off was still big from 50-ish hz down. There was no circumstance where an F3 of 30hz was achievable or measurable. Not that any measurements are actually needed, because it can easily be heard by ear.

There are other little flags in your statements that tell me something is off...
"The compromise Ford (or Harmon, I gather) made was to bump output at 70 to 100Hz (the thumpy part of music, which the average Joe is attracted to), which increases the excursion roughly 6x over "flat", for the door speakers." What? Again, the "thumpy" part of the music is around 50hz. Excursion is lower at 70-100hz(even with the factory bump) than it would be at 30-50hz with the ACM set to flat EQ. Hence, the reason for Ford's heavy drop off when not set to FLAT. That cut is to protect the speakers, period. The upper bass bump is just to mask it. I'm a little surprised by the headphones/earbuds comment as well. That is a completely different acoustic principle, and something that has no place in a car audio discussion.

Again, I'm not trying to be snarky or a know it all. I definitely don't know everything, and will quickly admit when I'm wrong. I do know you are mistaken with some of your statements. I feel like there may be a lot of "gathering" and theory going on, but not firsthand understanding. In other words, well read but not well practiced. Some of the things you say are correct, but other things are off the reservation.

I'm going to leave this subject alone as it pertains to the door speakers and their technical capabilities for now. It isn't useful to the original intent of the post anymore. The FLAT EQ setting is the only part that does pertain to the intent of the thread, and is most definitely important to good integration of a proper sub in the Mavericks

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