Hybrid MPG Estimate Delay - New Chips maybe?

[dceggert]

At this point in time relative to production scheduling it is likely that all the fuel economy data has been submitted to the EPA and Ford is waiting for certification verification. The scheduling for expanded production starts tomorrow for November so it is a good indicator that the certification is expected very soon.

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[adawalli]

I'm looking forward to the game-ification of the hybrid MPG, seeing how good I can get my regular 5 minute commute to the office day-in and day-out.

That is certainly a driving scenario where the Hybrid should shine! Total opposite if you were going with an Ecoboost.

This is actually a terrible situation for the hybrid. The hybrid will really not use EV mode until the engine is fully heated up. In fact, it will actually run the RPMs higher than you are normally used to on an ice engine, at its most efficient but higher RPM in order to heat up faster. This is one reason why the Maverick includes automated baffles, to help it heat up faster. But the computer won't allow the most efficient mode of operation until the engine is nice and warm.

 

[DryHeat]

Assuming that there is a problem with Ford's official MPG estimate, and
Assuming that the problem caused Ford to have to change some silicon, and
Assuming that the change in silicon requires some additional QA/QC...

Doesn't it seem likely that space aliens are sabotaging the production, maybe with probes?

 

[DryHeat]

The hybrid will really not use EV mode until the engine is fully heated up.

I thought that, assuming the battery is charged, the hybrid would start and cruise at low speed / low load using battery power only.

See the description of "Mode #3" operation beginning at about the 20:40 min mark in this video:
Understanding the Toyota RAV4 Hybrid - YouTube

 

[adawalli]

I thought that, assuming the battery is charged, the hybrid would start and cruise at low speed / low load using battery power only.

See the description of "Mode #3" operation beginning at about the 20:40 min mark in this video:
Understanding the Toyota RAV4 Hybrid - YouTube

When the engine is cold, it's primary goal is going to be get hot. After that, sure you can run into a store and after you start it up it'll get to the last stage very quickly and use EV mode no problem. He's not wrong that it's highly dependent on the battery state of charge, he just neglected to mention engine temperature as well. One thing the Toyota's have that I don't think the Maverick has is an EV button where you can try to force it into EV mode even when cold.

It's all based on the computer though, so who knows maybe they'll have tweaked it and this will be different than previous generations

 

[fbov]

This is actually a terrible situation for the hybrid. The hybrid will really not use EV mode until the engine is fully heated up. ....

This is not the case in the Escape Hybrid. It heats faster than the C-Max, and EV's well below operating temperature, typically in the first 1/2 mile. Perhaps you're describing Prius operation?

 

[adawalli]

This is not the case in the Escape Hybrid. It heats faster than the C-Max, and EV's well below operating temperature, typically in the first 1/2 mile. Perhaps you're describing Prius operation?

I wasn't really commenting on the amount of time it takes, just said it wants to get hot. From my experience the amount of time it takes to get hot is based not only on ambient temperature but how hard you drive it after starting it. It takes me over 5 minutes to get out of my neighborhood which is a slow process to heat it up.

Maybe the baffles work better than I'm expecting if that's your experience with the escape.

typically in the first 1/2 mile.

Full operating temp in a half mile!!?

 

[Darnon]

Between 3/4-1 mile for my Fusion to reach warm enough for regular hybrid operation and it doesn't have the exhaust heat scavenger the Escape and Maverick will.

 

[DryHeat]

When the engine is cold, it's primary goal is going to be get hot.

The Maverick manual says that the "computer will determine if an engine start is required at key-on" and mentions things like cabin heating, windshield defrost, and low outside temperature as reasons why that might happen. (p.167)

To me, that indicates that ICE start-up is not always required.

Other hybrids I have ridden in seem to be able to start and run at low speed without starting the ICE, so I'm thinking Maverick will also be able to do this.

 

[Shay]

Having watched many new vehicle launches over the decades, this is nothing at all unusual. It's almost always last minute stuff to have the numbers held back to the 11th hour. I really would not read anything into it other than this stuff takes time especially when so much is riding on it.

 

[bwiese]

Clavicus,
Sometimes it's possible, sometimes it's not.
For a generalized embedded processor, sure -redesign unit and recompile. Fine for a dash unit or stereo or certain kinds of body controllers.

But chips for engine control (and precise motor control for hybrids) have specialized timing units, etc. that require unique non-generic, not-very-portable low-level programming. To changeover from one such specialized embedded CPU to another embedded CPU is not simple - esp where code validation, testing, etc. are concerned [and emissions - a teeny trivial thing could risk an emissions flaw that costs millions to support in fines, firmware patching, dealer warranty support, and legal team support vs EPA or state agencies.

Remember also if Tesla has a screwup they have "innovator bias" built in with rabidly forgiving owners and a relatively small fleet. Ford or GM? They'll get slammed.

[Years ago you might remember that the Caddy Eldorado had an engineer tweak the code/tuning to improve idle with A/C on. Workflow got short circuited and it did not go thru full emissions test cycle before release to mfg. A whole pile of cars failed EPA emissions testing - which is 1000X more sensitive than state/local inspection/maintenance compliance testing which primarily filters out near-gross-emitters - and cost Caddy/GMC around $60 million to resolve.

I gotcha, I just wonder if they have to reprogram some software (IF they are even using alternate chips), so that would potentially take time to debug and QA/QC. Didn't Tesla have to do this?
https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595060/tesla-chip-shortage-software-rewriting-ev-processor

 

[mav_can]

Full operating temp in a half mile!!?

There are actually some clever over-engineered solutions to make this happen. At least on the Prius. For one generation they had a system that kept the engine oil in a thermos-like container so it would stay hot at least overnight, and would be ready for morning. On the escape the exhaust is specially designed with a mechanism so it can keep as much heat as possible to the engine when instructed by the computer. If the engine gets too hot it acts like a traditional exhaust. Also the engine will rev a little higher than usual to warm up (and probably charge the battery at the same time).

I’m not sure if it’s 1/2 a mile or what, but keep in mind this isn’t a traditional vehicle and getting the system to optimal efficiency is top of mind.

 

[TheGriffin1313]

I am not much to fret, but after hearing all this talk about the Hybrid being delayed till 2023 and such I placed a call to the trusty ford 800 number and I was assured that my Hybrid is scheduled for delivery this fall and I should get a vin number in a few weeks? Well fall started on Sep 22 and ends in Dec 21. So we will see but I am not holding my breath.
He did mention he has not gotten a bulletin stating that the Hybrid is stalled or on hold aside from the EPA nonsense.

This all could be something or nothing.
Let's get the popcorn out and watch all the drama unfold.

 

[CoryDallas8123]

I am not much to fret, but after hearing all this talk about the Hybrid being delayed till 2023 and such I placed a call to the trusty ford 800 number and I was assured that my Hybrid is scheduled for delivery this fall and I should get a vin number in a few weeks? Well fall started on Sep 22 and ends in Dec 21. So we will see but I am not holding my breath.
He did mention he has not gotten a bulletin stating that the Hybrid is stalled or on hold aside from the EPA nonsense.

This all could be something or nothing.
Let's get the popcorn out and watch all the drama unfold.

Just sit back and watch the world burn! Haha. It’s burning for some for sure based on comments.

When they write the history books in 2154 they will talk about 2020-2022 as the worst possible time ever to try and buy a vehicle. The kids will then say “those idiots drove themselves around and didn’t fly with just their mind controlled personal jet!”

 

[TheGriffin1313]

Just sit back and watch the world burn! Haha. It’s burning for some for sure based on comments.

When they write the history books in 2154 they will talk about 2020-2022 as the worst possible time ever to try and buy a vehicle. The kids will then say “those idiots drove themselves around and didn’t fly with just their mind controlled personal jet!”

Interesting thought, If there is a 2154 our history will be rewritten to align with that timelines narrative for sure. Just like ours is right now. I think the future is going to be like the movie Ready Player One. Where people just struggle to survive with broken things.

I truly believe the most intelligent moment in mans time was from 1750 to 1950 with pen and paper we discovered gravity (Newton), wavelengths of light and energy (Maxwell), RF propagation and electromagnetism to create AC (Tesla) the splitting of the Atom (Einstein). All of their achievements where done with candle light, paper and pencil nothing else (Ok maybe a ruler). We are riding the coattails of giants with our PC and artificial intelligence. We are a blackout away from living in huts and tents.
We are a reflection of our greater selves.

Maybe someday realty will sink in and we can go back to the fundamentals of the real world.

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