Hybrid 12 Volt Battery Crazy Findings

[Cherokee]

You don't even have a Hybrid cause they are so scary, remember? Why would you come talk trash about forum fixes when it doesn't even pertain to you?

And actually the charging scheme does actually address batteries prematurely failing, but maybe you didn't understand that?

I watch this stuff because my AGM remains around an 80% charge level, no more, and that’s not good.

I don’t talk trash, sorry you felt offended.
Did not mean to upset sensitive folks, I’m pretty raw. It’s my way.
Block me if I’m too much.

I want a fix so my AGM will last longer.

I guess you didn’t know this sorry Ford software problem is not just a hybrid thing.

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[rslilly76]

I watch this stuff because my AGM remains around an 80% charge level, no more, and that’s not good.

I don’t talk trash, sorry you felt offended.
Did not mean to upset sensitive folks, I’m pretty raw. It’s my way.
Block me if I’m too much.

I want a fix so my AGM will last longer.

I guess you didn’t know this sorry Ford software problem is not just a hybrid thing.

I wasn't offended at all, and as far as forum fixes we suggested try the 4 different methods and see if the battery charges to full capacity

 

[HeyBales]

you said yours is forscan lite, right?

Yep. I noticed you had 3 of those available. Unless the 4th was named slightly different in other location.

 

[rslilly76]

Yep. I noticed you had 3 of those available. Unless the 4th was named slightly different in other location.

I'll have to go look again!
I'm still learning

 

[Mavster Mechanic]

All these so called or claimed fixes forum members do and talk about as far as I can tell have fixed nothing.

Well, I won't be replacing any 12v batteries for 5 years or more. Does that count as a fix?

 

[HeyBales]

Does the XL have heated power mirrors? Sliding back glass window? If not, these would be 2 examples.

Are you thinking along the lines of other systems that might cause the increased charge rate?

You did see the other thread, with Mavster and his non XL, with inverter, towing package, ect?

Sliding window - if using that for 2 seconds causes increased charge rate - go for it!
How long do heated mirrors stay on?

Still not sure what you think these differences mean to the suggestion given, if something other than charge rate.
12V system usage?
Already shown the DCDC handles all that - doesn't matter to battery when running.

ETA: replied before I saw newer post that addressed the confusion.

 

[HeyBales]

I never had any sleep mode notifications with my '25 hybrid Lariat. I figured it was due to my 4 day/week 70 mile round trip commute which was 95% highway speeds 70-80. I do have the headlights set on auto all the time which I think has DRL's? Not sure if that is enough to kick it into 100% charge mode.

I finally did recently get a sleep mode notification but that was after the truck had been totaled almost 2 months prior and had not been run at all for that time.

Just for anyone that thinks the hybrid 12VB charging is like past vehicles.
Speed doesn't matter - time matters.
Actually, many vehicles past 2010 started using load cycling on the alternators and reducing charging - so higher RPM's on highway speeds didn't matter either.

DSM has 1 parameter of no starts for 14 days - must have happened while it was in the shop.
Or they kept opening the doors running the battery down and you hit the other 2 parameters eventually.

 

[HeyBales]

Nice write up rslilly76
and great background about the system from years back until now.
One thing to note.
There has been issues with the parasitic draw from control modules.
There has been issues with batteries.
But there is a big problem with how Ford decided how to charge the battery.

There is a difference in charging a flooded over a AGM battery.
Flooded like to be charged to 100% and can be charged at 14.8 V all the way down to less than .25amps charging. With our hurting the battery.
AGM batteries are a different story, (check the books on charging a AGM), they do not like to be over charged. That is why they need a smart charger for AGM.
As soon as a AGM battery reaches 14.8 v and charging amp of 1 amp or so charging or less, the charging voltage will drop down to 13.X volts to float charge and not over charge the battery.

I have checked my 23 maverick hybrid XLT with forscan and checked battery chemistry, and changed from flooded to AGM, and back and forth and did not notice any difference in charging voltage no matter what the current was.
I changed the SOC from 80% up to 99% and did not notice any difference.

I did notice when my SOC reached 91% the charging voltage dropped to 12.8V, that is too low for floating voltage.
I was one of the owners that found out last year when you SOC is over 91% and it changes to 12.8V, if you turn the cabin fan over 6 then charging voltage goes back to 14.8 v,
I have not done any testing on the other methods of getting the charging system to change
.
What I have also noticed is the EFB that the mav hybrids have acts similar in charging to the AGM, and need a smart charger to charge them.

I have a wonvon volt/amp meter connected to my battery, so I can see the voltage and current for the 12V battery when the truck is running or when its off.

My SOC on "car scanner" app shows between 50% up to 53%
It has been that way for over 2 months of testing.
After a half hour drive the voltage will be 14.8 and the current will drop to 0 on car scanner app, but can show .5amp on my WonVon meter.

To me and the books, it is charged and should change to floating charge, but it does not.
Floating charge is controlled by the charging system SOC, not what the charging current is.
if your battery is going bad and the SOC is not great, it will keep trying to charging the battery, will never get the SOC up, so it keeps trying.
Ford used EFB since its like AGM where they can recover faster that flooded batteries.

The big problem is when you turn off the mav hybrid, current is still flowing out of the battery, for up to 90 minutes.
And you may be able to recover the draw the next time you drive, or maybe not.

Another great test case - with the extra details straight from another battery sensor, besides Ford's own.
Yours was the first post about being above 90% and seeing that 12.8V and amp draw, that I saw at 85%. Never realized the difference being AGM.

Since your SOC is reading rather low right now - and you already knew the fan spd 6 increased Volts back up - had you ever noticed what the amps are doing with current SOC and that fan setting?
I'm guessing since low SOC, nothing beyond normal float charge.

But you charge it up externally still?
Wait until you see that 12.8V reading again the next day driving - get fan spd 6 - now see what the V & A do!

 

[rslilly76]

Another great test case - with the extra details straight from another battery sensor, besides Ford's own.
Yours was the first post about being above 90% and seeing that 12.8V and amp draw, that I saw at 85%. Never realized the difference being AGM.

Since your SOC is reading rather low right now - and you already knew the fan spd 6 increased Volts back up - had you ever noticed what the amps are doing with current SOC and that fan setting?
I'm guessing since low SOC, nothing beyond normal float charge.

But you charge it up externally still?
Wait until you see that 12.8V reading again the next day driving - get fan spd 6 - now see what the V & A do!

you're probably right on your assumption although I honestly don't have the answer

 

[rslilly76]

So another crazy thing battery was at 99% when I parked it, went to leave at noon battery is magically at 92% and went strait to drain mode when started. my sleep draw was 30mA too which has normally been at 12-18mA

I'm gonna set the parking brake tonight for fun to see what happens

 

[HeyBales]

I watch this stuff because my AGM remains around an 80% charge level, no more, and that’s not good.

I don’t talk trash, sorry you felt offended.
Did not mean to upset sensitive folks, I’m pretty raw. It’s my way.
Block me if I’m too much.

I want a fix so my AGM will last longer.

I guess you didn’t know this sorry Ford software problem is not just a hybrid thing.

That's the kicker though. Doubtful to be a fix.
Workarounds sure - external charging, and now this if battery already good enough.

Ford has had plenty of hybrid SLA battery returns, vast majority probably tagged as bad battery.
Some bean counter is purely looking at their supplier - not a thought in their mind about programming causing bad batteries.
Some parasitic draws too - so that causes a distraction for the fact there are 2 issues here.

AGM extends the time, but not as long as other AGM's last. But get's the vehicle outside warranty. probably. And that seems to apply to other model lines too.
I still think this is purposeful programming for whatever reason.

Unless purely bad algorithms.
Perhaps they have data on prior models - they have average drive times, average time other systems that cause more charge are used, ect.
And their AGM batteries in those cases held at desired 92%, for decent longevity. (thanks Ford for making SLA lower)
And they assumed avg drivers of this truck would be the same.
But they aren't on the initial sale years of them. (is that changing with more sales, more avg use cases matching prior models?)
So battery drops too low, their special use cases for full charge don't work - resulting in more bad batteries.

I know you've commented a full charge and desulf repair now really doesn't get yours that high for resting voltage anymore.
But maybe it's high enough that driving from then on with headlights on, or one of the 4 things - will keep it charged up higher than Ford's low limit default - extending it's life.

 

[samspritzer]

Are you thinking along the lines of other systems that might cause the increased charge rate?

You did see the other thread, with Mavster and his non XL, with inverter, towing package, ect?

Sliding window - if using that for 2 seconds causes increased charge rate - go for it!
How long do heated mirrors stay on?

Still not sure what you think these differences mean to the suggestion given, if something other than charge rate.
12V system usage?
Already shown the DCDC handles all that - doesn't matter to battery when running.

Yea, I was looking at it from a trigger perspective. OP corrected me.

 

[johnDeere]

Another great test case - with the extra details straight from another battery sensor, besides Ford's own.
Yours was the first post about being above 90% and seeing that 12.8V and amp draw, that I saw at 85%. Never realized the difference being AGM.

Since your SOC is reading rather low right now - and you already knew the fan spd 6 increased Volts back up - had you ever noticed what the amps are doing with current SOC and that fan setting?
I'm guessing since low SOC, nothing beyond normal float charge.

But you charge it up externally still?
Wait until you see that 12.8V reading again the next day driving - get fan spd 6 - now see what the V & A do!

Hello Mike
Thank you for chiming in.
With the SOC so low, the charging stays at 14.8+- volts no matter what I turn on or off.
it never changes to floating charge.
Nope, I am not doing any external charging.

What I noticed on my test deep cycle battery was after a 15 minute drive to work, I was still charging at over 1-2amps on car scanner, but when I changed to the original EFB it would drop to 0 amps on car scanner.
So the EFB could recover faster than the deep cycle battery, witch is correct.

In the past two months of testing the original EFB I have not seen the 12.8 floating voltage.

From what I have seen on my WonVon volt/current meter, my current drops to zero in less than a half hour after i turn off and remove the key.
If I leave the key in the ignition current flow is .01 amps for over a hour.

I have not had any updates done except the the rear view camera update.
23 mav hybrid XLT 26k miles.

 

[HeyBales]

So another crazy thing battery was at 99% when I parked it, went to leave at noon battery is magically at 92% and went strait to drain mode when started. my sleep draw was 30mA too which has normally been at 12-18mA

I'm gonna set the parking brake tonight for fun to see what happens

I think those cumulative figures are used in charging strategy too.
I've had 2 sessions of doing things where doors open/closed, lights on extended with no locking, just a good old battery drain on 12V system without truck running.
When there was a bigger than normal mismatch between charging and total discharging Ah's and a new low SOC% - the BMS was very inspired to charge very high rate, and almost recovered, during my next drive - which I made longer when I saw what I did. That's what showed me higher charging is possible, just not used normally.

I'm guessing if it uses that info in some way to decide to do high charging on mismatch - then the other side is likely done too - don't overcharge being the mantra if they match.

There is a PID for a Battery Charge Mode - I thought it was a field for making an option selection, but happened to have it on during trip to Branson, and it's actually a Status PID, and it changed status to one of the other options. Not sure if your Car Scanner Pro shows what the PID's have as options - might be interesting because I think I saw it in your list.

Remember that sleep draw in mA's is nothing in comparison to the upwards 60 min (75 min pre-25MY) draw as things go to sleep. Or at least the potential during that time as things are supposed to go to sleep. Or go haywire!

@johnDeere has some draw figures on testing the going to sleep time.
My own with clamp amp meter for 60 min was about 0.3 A every 5 then 10 min. But clamp is not that accurate at low draw. Still, not even 1 Ah.


Attached is that SOC 41-55% inspired charging rate log file. I trimmed down the normal full log file to just the pertinent figures, hopefully.
Sadly I didn't know about the 2nd Amp PID for better accuracy.
I started truck before I started logging due to OBD adapter not connecting.
Discharged total on prior drive was 17 + 4 Ah vs 21 Ah charged. Here it's 18 + 4.
176 day old battery. Just before this the drive after work was 57-59% SOC, so already down in that range. Night time so headlights were on - but the other time I saw this effect they were not. So the high charge was not due to one of the 4 things enabled.
Either BMS knew what prior SOC was and wanted to get back up there, or it saw the difference in Ah and knew it had the space to really hit it. (I've had plenty of times the SOC% dropped decently overnight due to Relearn - wasn't inspired the next day to charge high. I think the difference with mine being BMS Relearn spec's, yours being logged spec's)

 

[Darryl]

Thanks to all that are Deep diving into Hybrid 12v battery issues. It is constantly on my mind as i have had many NO starts and 4 batteries in 2 years. I take every idea to heart and my son jokes that my truck rules my life (never driving less than 20min every time i start the truck etc) Thanks again i dont understand most of it but i do make any changes and suggestions that have all this research behind it and hopes that FORD figures it out sooner than later!

I'll guarantee that when a solution is found, there will be people who never get it because their dealerships techs don't stay current or they will argue with a Ford tech that tells them Ford has a solution (a new software update) that works for the vast majority of vehicles and tell him that he's wrong. Ford has issued an updated software patch that can't be done over the air because of the procedure that's used. But I'll bet that some who have vehicles still under warranty won't take them in to have the update performed. Seems like I'm yelling into a void

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