Ford delays new EV pickup to 2027

[Gonzo chris]

Chris the problem I have is not any of those state men you propped up.
My problem is you not understanding that a huge push to ev through mandate is not the way. China had exponential grow of emissions over the last few years.
So your answer is to say “we should be better”
Yet as we raise regs and drive all that market share and manufacturing to china the planet gets worse.
Auto industry has a market. That market will be filled. Now the answer is do we hold our moral high ground and let all the work be done in china and pretend that pollution will only affect china or do we look at it rationally and think. Hey maybe we need a different approach.
not to mention neither of us know how clean an ev truly is.

First we need batteries and the mining that goes along. All the oil needed to do that
Then comes power source. Wind, solar? All take massive amount of oil to create.
The. We have tire pollution with is insanely high on ev’s.

I have nothing against ev’s. But this talk like it saving anything is wrong.

Just another expansion of things people ignore to feel like they are making a difference.

https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/gaining-traction-losing-tread

I'm not arguing about renewables. I'm not saying they run on butterfly wings or anything like that. The difference is people with bigger brains than you and I have run the numbers on beginning to junkyard life of renewables and they aren't perfectly clean and I don't know what "massive amounts of oil" amounts to but it's a lot less than just burning oil. We do know how clean and EV is. They have done studies from cradle to grave on minerals extracted, fossil fuels used to extract them shipping etc. they are dirtier to manufacture but by the time they hit 50,000 miles on average they are cleaner and then from there on out they are much cleaner.. And yes that's why things like the IRA to bring mining shipping and manufacturing to the United States was a good idea. Had nothing to do with inflation but it helped with bringing more manufacturing the United States like LG announcing they're making a big battery factory in Michigan a couple of months ago. It's not pushing manufacturing to China if we make them here. There is nothing inherently complicated about an EV China is making more of them because half of the people here think it's 1950. You fix your roof when the sun is out so you start getting ready for the future market now.
Let's not forget also that batteries are becoming more energy dense at a much much more rapid rate than we're getting efficiencies in ice. Look at the Maverick the efficiency games in the hybrid have nothing to do with the gas engine and everything to do with they have a battery attached to them. There are plenty of materials in Canada and South America to make batteries where we would not have to get almost anything from africa. The American Auto industry just does what it always did it says it can't be done because it doesn't want to do it. Then it winds that we're going to lose our manufacturing base to some foreign country to get everybody scared. It's like when GM said you couldn't meet a mission standards without a catalytic converter and little Honda did it with the cvcc motor with like 1/100 of the budget if that.
You're using the argument that if something isn't perfect then it can't be better. Do large heavy EVS wear out tires quicker? Yes like for like vehicle wise they do but are we pretending that American pickup truck drivers aren't already driving giant heavy vehicles? It's largely like religion people believe what they want to. I'm not into EVs , I was what the Brits call a petrol head for many years I just recognize reality. But a lot of people don't like something for whatever reason-cultural, political, nostalgia etc- and then they look to poke holes in it. You know a man sees what he wants to see. I'm just trying to call balls and strikes

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[Gonzo chris]

Btw.
I personally know farmers in my area that have sold to solar as long term leases. Even though it’s an incredible windfall of money for them. Not a single one has ever walked away without saying how wasteful and environmentally destructive it is.
over a year of diesel power equipment running round the clock, completely destroyed the landscape. So toxic with a leak the land can not be farm after.
And all this is before they are even up and running.
If it was truly the savior of the earth we would not need massive amounts of mandates to force them into the field based on timelines.

First of all what diesel equipment is used to run the solar? Second of all that diesel equipment can eventually be replaced with new technologies. Third of all something can be the savior of the earth, I caught the sarcasm there, and not be cheaper. Ruining the Earth is usually cheaper. You know not having any emission standards on cars is cheaper, not having any emissions standards on coal powered generating plants is cheaper. That's why there's things like mandates or incentives. I'm personally a bigger fan of incentives than mandates. But you do see how something, especially a new technology, might be more expensive and people aren't going to make that choice they're going to choose the cheaper dirtier choice. What's best for your pocketbook today and what's best for the Earth or not necessarily the same thing. Are you telling me all of those farmers in Texas with the massive wind farms are all wearing cruelty free vegan sandals? No they're doing it because they have a lot of wind and it's not only more dependable it's cheaper for them.

 

[Gonzo chris]

Chris the problem I have is not any of those state men you propped up.
My problem is you not understanding that a huge push to ev through mandate is not the way. China had exponential grow of emissions over the last few years.
So your answer is to say “we should be better”
Yet as we raise regs and drive all that market share and manufacturing to china the planet gets worse.
Auto industry has a market. That market will be filled. Now the answer is do we hold our moral high ground and let all the work be done in china and pretend that pollution will only affect china or do we look at it rationally and think. Hey maybe we need a different approach.
not to mention neither of us know how clean an ev truly is.

First we need batteries and the mining that goes along. All the oil needed to do that
Then comes power source. Wind, solar? All take massive amount of oil to create.
The. We have tire pollution with is insanely high on ev’s.

I have nothing against ev’s. But this talk like it saving anything is wrong.

Just another expansion of things people ignore to feel like they are making a difference.

https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/gaining-traction-losing-tread

I'm confused. China is the world leader in manufacturing evs. So you're suggesting if we want to make more we're helping china? China's emissions have gone up as their economy has grown generating electricity. We still pollute for more than they do per capita. I think the point is we are losing ground to them manufacturing wise because we are more burying our heads in the sand long term and they're going to own not only the Asian market but large percentages of the European one. Look at American companies in Europe today they're retreating and they sell almost nothing there. Ford and GM will be nothing but pickup truck makers for the United States. It's fine to continue doing that to keep the lights on but you prepare for the future not by selling old technology to old guys that aren't going to be around in 20 years but alone buying something new old technology to old guys that aren't going to be around in 20 years but alone buying something new
Interesting article but there wasn't much specific about EVS in it it was more about tire wear being worse than emissions and aggressive driving, they used a gas powered VW golf as an example, making it much worse. As for weight the VW Atlas and a VW Id4 are basically the same weight. I think the atlas is listed as around 4,400 lb and the ID for is 4,300 to 4900 lb. Also the added weight is from the battery. So again as power density goes up that will go away like solid state batteries have I think close to three times the amount of power per pound compared to lithium ion.

 

[OleFordGuy]

Not a hater nor lover of all the movement stuff, was a conicendance that I ran across this video just before read the latest post on this thread
https://www.foxnews.com/media/scene...-show-landman-slams-clean-energy-goes-viral-x

 

[Gonzo chris]

Not a hater nor lover of all the movement stuff, was a conicendance that I ran across this video just before read the latest post on this thread
https://www.foxnews.com/media/scene...-show-landman-slams-clean-energy-goes-viral-x

Lol. Yes so the guy who wrote yellowstone, Billy Bob Thornton and Fox News is going to give me my impartial scientific advice? Nothing is clean nothing involving humans is going to be clean. Only simpletons think in black and white and think one is clean and the other is dirty it's a question of degree. Going by your post I'm sure you're old enough to remember when on clear sunny days you couldn't see City skylines because of smog

 

[Snox801]

My point being not how much china does per capita but how they have zero environmental controls per say. So yes we can not compete. If you would try and open a business you would see.
every regulation that you say keeps us clean. Cost money. Example silt fence around a dig site. We need it at cost of thousands for a decent size dig. That means we water out at a significant disadvantage to china right away. So many times after all the math it’s hard to even compete on a level field.
What you’re saying is they are far better off than we are cause they have 1 billion plus people. So now the overall pollution doesn’t matter?
Plus again you need some data on that. Absolutely zero way they pollute less. Keep in mind playing by your rules that’s all pollution. Some don’t burn gas to heat homes they use animals waste which is far worse.
But continue to believe that we are making a change. Unless you are willing to say. Ok we need a tariff that balances out the cost of all these things. Either china plays by the same rules or nobody does.

 

[Snox801]

Lol. Yes so the guy who wrote yellowstone, Billy Bob Thornton and Fox News is going to give me my impartial scientific advice? Nothing is clean nothing involving humans is going to be clean. Only simpletons think in black and white and think one is clean and the other is dirty it's a question of degree. Going by your post I'm sure you're old enough to remember when on clear sunny days you couldn't see City skylines because of smog

Doesn’t make him wrong.
Like I said for every study you have produced or will I can and would provide an opposite study saying otherwise.
So your idea is if you provide data it’s “science” if someone else makes a common sense point or because Fox News it’s garbage.
So we need to toss out every article anyone links to any new outlet. New flash they all have bias.
The tire wear one is perfect you cherry picked one vehicle they used. Then took a very heavy suv and compared it.
If you had any kind of real gumption you would say that’s a problem that most don’t think about. You know how we know it’s a problem? Because every major tire company has admitted it and are trying to make new tires. So yes ev tire wear model to model is worse than an ice version.
Then you rely on the dream of future breakthroughs in ev.
But then dismiss or ignore the points ive made about how much more efficient ice engine have got in such a short time. In 10 years we have almost doubled the efficiency of ice on the largest selling model the f-150.
Ev’s have not double the range, cut have the weight or double efficiency any more than that.
Again we can have both and openly talk about the good and bad of both. It’s not a binary. The good ideas will always win out.

 

[Gonzo chris]

Doesn’t make him wrong.
Like I said for every study you have produced or will I can and would provide an opposite study saying otherwise.
So your idea is if you provide data it’s “science” if someone else makes a common sense point or because Fox News it’s garbage.
So we need to toss out every article anyone links to any new outlet. New flash they all have bias.
The tire wear one is perfect you cherry picked one vehicle they used. Then took a very heavy suv and compared it.
If you had any kind of real gumption you would say that’s a problem that most don’t think about. You know how we know it’s a problem? Because every major tire company has admitted it and are trying to make new tires. So yes ev tire wear model to model is worse than an ice version.
Then you rely on the dream of future breakthroughs in ev.
But then dismiss or ignore the points ive made about how much more efficient ice engine have got in such a short time. In 10 years we have almost doubled the efficiency of ice on the largest selling model the f-150.
Ev’s have not double the range, cut have the weight or double efficiency any more than that.
Again we can have both and openly talk about the good and bad of both. It’s not a binary. The good ideas will always win out.

Didn't read all that. Yes I think the moon is made of cheese. ..... "Doesn't make me wrong"....age of the dumb.
You say if a new tech was the "savior of the earth" it would not require incentives or mandates but clearly you're smarter than that. What would be cheaper a car with a catalytic converter and emissions controls or no emissions? The market would dictate the latter but which is better for the environment the car that is cheaper with no emissions controls or the one that costs more to make with a catalytic converter? Hence the reason why in the mid-70s the government mandated emissions controls. On a sunny day you couldn't see the skyline of many cities.. if it costs me $5 to recycle the used oil from my crankcase is that cheaper or more expensive than dumping it down the storm inlet for $0? Uhhhh IDK what's cheaper $5 or $0 ....
Anyone with an IQ over 70 knows the market will seek the cheapest product that meets the need/ wants of the consumer without regard for the environmental consequences hence the need for regs or laws.
Are you seriously pretending fox News isn't biased? It is as is MSNBC. He's not smart enough to know that but I suspect you are

 

[Gonzo chris]

Doesn’t make him wrong.
Like I said for every study you have produced or will I can and would provide an opposite study saying otherwise.
So your idea is if you provide data it’s “science” if someone else makes a common sense point or because Fox News it’s garbage.
So we need to toss out every article anyone links to any new outlet. New flash they all have bias.
The tire wear one is perfect you cherry picked one vehicle they used. Then took a very heavy suv and compared it.
If you had any kind of real gumption you would say that’s a problem that most don’t think about. You know how we know it’s a problem? Because every major tire company has admitted it and are trying to make new tires. So yes ev tire wear model to model is worse than an ice version.
Then you rely on the dream of future breakthroughs in ev.
But then dismiss or ignore the points ive made about how much more efficient ice engine have got in such a short time. In 10 years we have almost doubled the efficiency of ice on the largest selling model the f-150.
Ev’s have not double the range, cut have the weight or double efficiency any more than that.
Again we can have both and openly talk about the good and bad of both. It’s not a binary. The good ideas will always win out.

I didn't "cherry pick" the one vehicle they used that was the one vehicle they used so even you Midwesterners should understand that I had no other vehicles to choose from.
Name one non hybrid - hybrid means part ICE part EV - that has doubled efficiency with the same capacity engine.
What's cheaper to manufacture and sell a car with a cat and emissions controls or the identical vehicle with none of the above? Obviously the cheaper one the market would choose is the one that pollutes more and the more expensive one is cleaner. Hence the reason why the government needed to mandate emissions controls in the mid 70's . The "big 3" whined that it would put them out of business and cede the auto market to the Japanese. Sounds familiar?

 

[dalola]

Hey all, as some of you know, I've been pretty outspoken against the *mandated* EV movement, and still am....the mandates & BS, not the engineering.

Well guess what? I now own a Mustang Mach-E4X Premium! Why you ask? Number one, because very few people want them, the current incentives are CRAZY good! And this makes it a good value, for the first time! (IMO, of course..) I've always been interested in the tech & engineering, and liked the concept, but was never into someone telling me what I should, or needed, to do, to save the world. No, sorry. I'm not. I bought it because it was a crazy value, and it drives really nice! It's something new to try, and so far, it's been a lot of fun!

OK, flame away....

 

[Bob The Builder]

They are losing their subsidies and rightfully so. They need to sink or swim based on their merits like most innovative products have too. It's about time. Also, the dozen or so states that use California's stricter emissions standards need to get with the program and accept the forthcoming lower cafe standards are well.

If this country is ever going to try to recapture at least part of our once great manufacturing prowess, it needs to get these monkeys off our back.

 

[inline_five]

They are losing their subsidies and rightfully so. They need to sink or swim based on their merits like most innovative products have too. It's about time. Also, the dozen or so states that use California's stricter emissions standards need to get with the program and accept the forthcoming lower cafe standards are well.

If this country is ever going to try to recapture at least part of our once great manufacturing prowess, it needs to get these monkeys off our back.

I'm 100% on your side, as long as we cut oil & gas subsidies as well. This includes using the military budget to ensure oil flows from "allies" in the middle east. We should be able to cut at least $500b a year from it now that we don't have to subsidize oil from around the world.

 

[inline_five]

Hey all, as some of you know, I've been pretty outspoken against the *mandated* EV movement, and still am....the mandates & BS, not the engineering.

Well guess what? I now own a Mustang Mach-E4X Premium! Why you ask? Number one, because very few people want them, the current incentives are CRAZY good! And this makes it a good value, for the first time! (IMO, of course..) I've always been interested in the tech & engineering, and liked the concept, but was never into someone telling me what I should, or needed, to do, to save the world. No, sorry. I'm not. I bought it because it was a crazy value, and it drives really nice! It's something new to try, and so far, it's been a lot of fun!

OK, flame away....

I can't wait for an all electric future. Think of all the complexities of the modern automobile, you get rid of thousands of parts and points of failure. Spark plugs, PCV vales, evap canisters, coils, mass airflow sensors, fuel pumps, transmissions...the list is endless. Heck, even brake jobs will basically be a thing of the past.

It hit me when I was waiting for a part at Advance Auto, as I was browsing the shelves. 85% of the stuff on them was for gasoline vehicles.

 

[Onceforall]

yes and no. it'll be an ecoboost with hybrid, probably the Nautilus drivetrain or a lower hp version.

The ecoboost can't deliver the efficiency of the normally aspirated atkinson motor with an ECVT. Ecoboost is great for a wide power band and the discrete gearing of an automatic. It isn't ideal for the ECVT with a narrow rpm range.

 

[The Real Maverick]

They are losing their subsidies and rightfully so. They need to sink or swim based on their merits like most innovative products have too. It's about time. Also, the dozen or so states that use California's stricter emissions standards need to get with the program and accept the forthcoming lower cafe standards are well.

Why are you saying you want gas prices to Double?

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