Seat Collapse in Accident - Follow Up

[DWV]

I'm in total agreement and sympathy with you; but the real demon in this scenario is the person who plowed into you.
Following too close or too fast or distracted, they bear the responsibility in my book.

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[Skaht]

For sure. I think the worst part was losing something so specific that we waited so long for.

 

[Hot Runr Guy]

I will absolutely never purchase a Ford again and am actively looking to get rid of my wife's Bronco Sport. My 12 and 20 year old typically ride in the back and the truck was our road trip vehicle. If my 20 year old had been there, their legs would have been crushed and the top of my skull would have gone right into their nose area, causing god knows what kind of damage. My 12 year old would have definitely sustained leg injuries as well. Now we're down a car and having to all ride in a SUV built on the same platform.

This is a known issue, in all vehicles, due to an outdated NHTSA safety standard. You can read about it here and here, and about the act introduced to correct the issue (which I believe has not gone into effect) here. Also a video from CBS here. Wild to think a long-running issue that's killing children isn't a big enough deal for car manufacturers to invest in correcting.

Knowing what you know now, what will you be buying to replace the Maverick & the Bronco Sport?

HRG

 

[Skaht]

Knowing what you know now, what will you be buying to replace the Maverick & the Bronco Sport?

HRG

I have no idea. It's completely fair that it could be any car that does this, but I definitely can't drive one again. For now I'm driving my kid's old 2005 Malibu Maxx and trying to sort it out.

Wife wants to move to a Subaru or something with better mileage. She's only getting about 21-22 combined in eco with a Badlands.

Who knows? Maybe in a couple months the memory of the seat collapse will fade enough to consider going back.

 

[sprcoop]

In 1978 I bought a 1972 Capri, the "Sexy European" not the boat Caprice.



At the time there was a milk crate wedged between the back seat and the driver seat to hold it up. As a 17 year old I didn't care.

Not long after there was a recall for that so I took it to the dealer and they welded it up.

Maybe the same recall for Mavs in six years.

 

[TheSEARCH]

Sorry this happened.

I watched the youtube video you posted .The one they showed was an Audi .It appears ALL makers of vehicles are like this NOT just the Ford Maverick.

Unless you can somehow figure out if what ever you decide to buy has stronger seats it wont help much. Best bet buy aftermarket racing seats like Recaro ,. Otherwise i don't see another brand of car being a real solution ,

 

[Glen Baker LLC]

Sorry this happened.

I watched the youtube video you posted .The one they showed was an Audi .It appears ALL makers of vehicles are like this NOT just the Ford Maverick.

Unless you can somehow figure out if what ever you decide to buy has stronger seats it wont help much. Best bet buy aftermarket racing seats like Recaro ,. Otherwise i don't see another brand of car being a real solution ,

At the very end of that 8 year old video. They did mention that Mercedes-Benz, Volvo and BMW have improved their seat back strength in order to remedy the situation.

 

[Phimosis]

My seat collapsed fully, and my head rest nearly came off. I went backwards hitting the top/back of my head on the rear seat just below my headrest, breaking the skin.

First things first; the head rest didn’t nearly come off. It performed as designed. This is called “active head restraint” there is a mechanism inside of the seat that reacts to your weight forcefully moving backwards that causes the head rest to extend upwards and forwards. This motion gets support to you your head sooner, to prevent uncontrolled motion that leads to spine injuries.

The second part is about the seat back “collapsing”. More accurately, this is a rotational deformation. Research shows that allowing the seat back to bend (rotate), that it decreases the acceleration forces applied to the head, spine and torso. The ideal amount of rotation is to 35 degrees. Once you go over 40 degrees of rotation, you have decreased seat retention, ie you side out from under the seat belt and go flying loose in the car, which then increases injury risk. The regulation that dictates how stiff seats have to be, FMVSS 207, has to be a “one size fits all” solution; low speed impacts, high speed impacts, small occupants, average occupants and XL occupants. And it has to be a balance between front row occupants and rear row occupants. Very stiff front seats with low rotational deformation are safer for rear seat occupants, but increases the risk of spine fractures in the front row occupants.

Now to completely muddy the waters here: accident injury attorneys. People get hurt in accidents, even in the safest cars on the road. And someone is always legally at fault. So attorneys have a vested interest in blaming manufacturers for the injuries, because manufacturers have the most money, which they will get a percent of in their legal retainer. So over the years, accident injury attorneys have found a slew of professional witnesses that will argue that these injuries are being caused by the seat deformation.

But the research shows that the seat deformation is protecting the occupants. An infinitely stiff seat would apply all of the impact force in an infinitely short period of time, leading to very high acceleration forces. By applying the forces over a longer period of time, it decreases the G forces applied to the body. 25 G’s will daze you. 45 G’s will cause broken ribs and extremities. 50 G’s will kill half of all children. 65 G’s will kill half of adult women. 75 G’s will kill half of adult men. 100 G’s is getting into the zone where only 5% of people will survive….. and with critical injuries.

—Side Note— in the car crash that princess Dianna died in, it was estimated that the crash forces were 75-100 G’s. One person out of the 4 in the car survived. The one that survived was in the hospital for over a month and had numerous surgeries.

Based on your pictures, it looks like your driver’s seat is approaching 40 degrees of deformation. That is more than acceptable. So my first question is, “what is your weight?” I’m guessing youre a 95th percentile male, ie 220+ lbs? Again, this has to be a one size fits all solution. A 100 lb female in the seat would have a lot less deformity and her body would see higher acceleration loads, leading to more injuries.

To be honest, I think this is an excellent outcome. This was a really big hit and you both walked away from it. The car did exactly what is was supposed to do. If the seats didn’t deform, you both could have easily ended up with spine fractures.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19058102/

 

[NJBob]

My first new vehicle a 1980 Chevy Luv. Had it a week when a carload of teens rear ended me. My head went through the rear window. I was ok just had to pick some glass out of my head. A probable concussion too
No headrest on that vehicle. We have come a long way in safety but still have more to do.

 

[Skaht]

First things first; the head rest didn’t nearly come off. It performed as designed. This is called “active head restraint” there is a mechanism inside of the seat that reacts to your weight forcefully moving backwards that causes the head rest to extend upwards and forwards. This motion gets support to you your head sooner, to prevent uncontrolled motion that leads to spine injuries.

The second part is about the seat back “collapsing”. More accurately, this is a rotational deformation. Research shows that allowing the seat back to bend (rotate), that it decreases the acceleration forces applied to the head, spine and torso. The ideal amount of rotation is to 35 degrees. Once you go over 40 degrees of rotation, you have decreased seat retention, ie you side out from under the seat belt and go flying loose in the car, which then increases injury risk. The regulation that dictates how stiff seats have to be, FMVSS 207, has to be a “one size fits all” solution; low speed impacts, high speed impacts, small occupants, average occupants and XL occupants. And it has to be a balance between front row occupants and rear row occupants. Very stiff front seats with low rotational deformation are safer for rear seat occupants, but increases the risk of spine fractures in the front row occupants.

Now to completely muddy the waters here: accident injury attorneys. People get hurt in accidents, even in the safest cars on the road. And someone is always legally at fault. So attorneys have a vested interest in blaming manufacturers for the injuries, because manufacturers have the most money, which they will get a percent of in their legal retainer. So over the years, accident injury attorneys have found a slew of professional witnesses that will argue that these injuries are being caused by the seat deformation.

But the research shows that the seat deformation is protecting the occupants. An infinitely stiff seat would apply all of the impact force in an infinitely short period of time, leading to very high acceleration forces. By applying the forces over a longer period of time, it decreases the G forces applied to the body. 25 G’s will daze you. 45 G’s will cause broken ribs and extremities. 50 G’s will kill half of all children. 65 G’s will kill half of adult women. 75 G’s will kill half of adult men. 100 G’s is getting into the zone where only 5% of people will survive….. and with critical injuries.

Based on your pictures, it looks like your driver’s seat is approaching 40 degrees of deformation. That is more than acceptable. So my first question is, “what is your weight?” I’m guessing youre a 95th percentile male, ie 220+ lbs? Again, this has to be a one size fits all solution. A 100 lb female in the seat would have a lot less deformity and her body would see higher acceleration loads, leading to more injuries.

To be honest, I think this is an excellent outcome. This was a really big hit and you both walked away from it. The car did exactly what is was supposed to do. If the seats didn’t deform, you both could have easily ended up with spine fractures.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19058102/

You clearly know what you're talking about, and I have a lot of what-if's having gone through it. I would ask, though, is it an okay outcome had their been my kid behind me? Is this one of those calculated risks or whatever?

 

[Glen Baker LLC]

First things first; the head rest didn’t nearly come off. It performed as designed. This is called “active head restraint” there is a mechanism inside of the seat that reacts to your weight forcefully moving backwards that causes the head rest to extend upwards and forwards. This motion gets support to you your head sooner, to prevent uncontrolled motion that leads to spine injuries.

The second part is about the seat back “collapsing”. More accurately, this is a rotational deformation. Research shows that allowing the seat back to bend (rotate), that it decreases the acceleration forces applied to the head, spine and torso. The ideal amount of rotation is to 35 degrees. Once you go over 40 degrees of rotation, you have decreased seat retention, ie you side out from under the seat belt and go flying loose in the car, which then increases injury risk. The regulation that dictates how stiff seats have to be, FMVSS 207, has to be a “one size fits all” solution; low speed impacts, high speed impacts, small occupants, average occupants and XL occupants. And it has to be a balance between front row occupants and rear row occupants. Very stiff front seats with low rotational deformation are safer for rear seat occupants, but increases the risk of spine fractures in the front row occupants.

Now to completely muddy the waters here: accident injury attorneys. People get hurt in accidents, even in the safest cars on the road. And someone is always legally at fault. So attorneys have a vested interest in blaming manufacturers for the injuries, because manufacturers have the most money, which they will get a percent of in their legal retainer. So over the years, accident injury attorneys have found a slew of professional witnesses that will argue that these injuries are being caused by the seat deformation.

But the research shows that the seat deformation is protecting the occupants. An infinitely stiff seat would apply all of the impact force in an infinitely short period of time, leading to very high acceleration forces. By applying the forces over a longer period of time, it decreases the G forces applied to the body. 25 G’s will daze you. 45 G’s will cause broken ribs and extremities. 50 G’s will kill half of all children. 65 G’s will kill half of adult women. 75 G’s will kill half of adult men. 100 G’s is getting into the zone where only 5% of people will survive….. and with critical injuries.

Based on your pictures, it looks like your driver’s seat is approaching 40 degrees of deformation. That is more than acceptable. So my first question is, “what is your weight?” I’m guessing youre a 95th percentile male, ie 220+ lbs? Again, this has to be a one size fits all solution. A 100 lb female in the seat would have a lot less deformity and her body would see higher acceleration loads, leading to more injuries.

To be honest, I think this is an excellent outcome. This was a really big hit and you both walked away from it. The car did exactly what is was supposed to do. If the seats didn’t deform, you both could have easily ended up with spine fractures.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19058102/

It's all words and hunky dory until your child is the statistic who becomes disabled or killed because your seat back collapses.

 

[Tiger Dude]

Your truck saved your life. For what speed impact do you want them to design the seat? These things aren't free.

 

[Phimosis]

You clearly know what you're talking about, and I have a lot of what-if's having gone through it. I would ask, though, is it an okay outcome had their been my kid behind me? Is this one of those calculated risks or whatever?

That is exactly it…. One of those calculated risks. But it’s not just a calculated risk; the data is born out of crash test dummies on collision sleds. They found that if the seat frame was not stiff and the seat could bend side to side, that the whole plan went sideways and injuries happened. But if they make the seat frame very stiff and the seat back controllably deformable under load, it decreased injuries. If it deformed too far, rear passengers got injured. If it deformed too little, front seat passengers got injured.

I saw a patient today, after I posted my last comment to you, for a swallowing evaluation…. A motion picture X-ray, while actively swallowing a high density barium liquid that shows up under fluoroscopy, to see if he is aspirating, ie unable to control the flow of liquid, which then pours into the lungs. He was in a hard cervical collar. I could see extensive metal hardware in his cervical spine, implying that he had a cervical spine fracture and a neurosurgeon realigned his spine as best as possible and put metal plates in to stabilize the bones while they heal. Thinking of this MTC conversation, I asked him what happened. He said he was driving and traffic came to a stop on the freeway, then someone rear ended him at freeway speed. He is able to move all 4 extremities, but he can’t walk or write or tie his shoes. He has a partial spinal cord injury. This is the exact type of injury that deformable seats are trying to prevent.

Back to your question about, if your child was sitting behind you….. their face could very likely smash into the top of your skull or into the head rest. A horrible injury, but usually not life threatening. Your face, with hollow sinuses and numerous thin bony plates, works like the crumple zone on a car. It gets crushed in, but protects the skull/brain from the big impact. With modern surgical techniques, we can rebuild the face. But if the driver becomes quadriplegic from a severe whip-lash injury, we can’t fix that.

I didn’t even mention leg injuries, because those are uncommon in rear seat passengers. Even if the legs were “pinned” down, the rear seat bench is foam rubber and is deformable. You could be wedged in there and need to be extracted by rescue workers, without suffering any leg fractures.

 

[Skaht]

That is exactly it…. One of those calculated risks. But it’s not just a calculated risk; the data is born out of crash test dummies on collision sleds. They found that if the seat frame was not stiff and the seat could bend side to side, that the whole plan went sideways and injuries happened. But if they make the seat frame very stiff and the seat back controllably deformable under load, it decreased injuries. If it deformed too far, rear passengers got injured. If it deformed too little, front seat passengers got injured.

I saw a patient today, after I posted my last comment to you, for a swallowing evaluation…. A motion picture X-ray, while actively swallowing a high density barium liquid that shows up under fluoroscopy, to see if he is aspirating, ie unable to control the flow of liquid, which then pours into the lungs. He was in a hard cervical collar. I could see extensive metal hardware in his cervical spine, implying that he had a cervical spine fracture and a neurosurgeon realigned his spine as best as possible and put metal plates in to stabilize the bones while they heal. Thinking of this MTC conversation, I asked him what happened. He said he was driving and traffic came to a stop on the freeway, then someone rear ended him at freeway speed. He is able to move all 4 extremities, but he can’t walk or write or tie his shoes. He has a partial spinal cord injury. This is the exact type of injury that deformable seats are trying to prevent.

Back to your question about, if your child was sitting behind you….. their face could very likely smash into the top of your skull or into the head rest. A horrible injury, but usually not life threatening. Your face, with hollow sinuses and numerous thin bony plates, works like the crumple zone on a car. It gets crushed in, but protects the skull/brain from the big impact. With modern surgical techniques, we can rebuild the face. But if the driver becomes quadriplegic from a severe whip-lash injury, we can’t fix that.

I didn’t even mention leg injuries, because those are uncommon in rear seat passengers. Even if the legs were “pinned” down, the rear seat bench is foam rubber and is deformable. You could be wedged in there and need to be extracted by rescue workers, without suffering any leg fractures.

I appreciate the candor here. It's all perspective, I suppose.

To the other commenter, I'd rather be paralyzed than risk a serious injury to my kid.

 

[1929]

I appreciate the candor here. It's all perspective, I suppose.

To the other commenter, I'd rather be paralyzed than risk a serious injury to my kid.

At some point in the future your kid will be the driver and I believe you would want that seat to deform and protect their spine.

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