Hybrid battery idle discharge?

[Franks and Beans]

Honestly, it sometimes seems like y'all are looking for reasons to be scared of hybrid batteries. But yeah, it's not great for any of the batteries in your vehicles to sit around unused for 3 or 4 months at the time, especially if you have background options trickling, like your remote start access and stuff. If you park a vehicle for long periods on a regular basis, you might have to charge your batteries.

My spouse and I both drive hybrids. We've taken long trips where one or both cars stayed at home in our driveway (or a hotel parking lot). They were fine.

But sure, if you're buying a vehicle to store at the vacation house that you only visit a few times a year, you might be better off with a plug-in hybrid.

Agreed.
First, hybrids have been around for a while now but this is a first for a truck. A few are wary of the the HV battery because they do not understand them. Stop thinking of it as a battery in the traditional sense and start thinking of it as a reservoir/tank. No one here has worried about leaving gas in the car tank for 6 mos. without driving it. However, if the vehicle is not being driven for 6 mos. at a time, it kind of defeats the purpose of having better fuel economy.

Second, the manual HV battery storage suggestions are just a way for Ford to defer responsibility. How many of us have hybrid Mavericks (I'm one!) sitting in a hot desert location waiting for shipping and OKTB (Dec.8th and then probably a few more weeks?) releases?

Does anyone here really think Ford is starting them every 15 days and letting them run for 15 minutes???
C'mon man

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[Big_T]

**snip**
Second, the manual HV battery storage suggestions are just a way for Ford to defer responsibility. How many of us have hybrid Mavericks (I'm one!) sitting in a hot desert location waiting for shipping and OKTB (Dec.8th and then probably a few more weeks?) releases?

Does anyone here really think Ford is starting them every 15 days and letting them run for 15 minutes???
C'mon man

I'm sure they are just sitting. And my Maverick hybrid is also sitting there with yours.

I'm also sure that Ford is intentionally still showing them "In Production" on the tracker instead of "Built". Since they are not yet "Built ,"there is no need to observe any of the owners manual requirements.

I bet if you look up Frustrating in a new dictionary, it will say see ordering a Ford Maverick in 2021.

 

[Franks and Beans]

I bet if you look up Frustrating in a new dictionary, it will say see ordering a Ford Maverick in 2021.

LOL, new memes?
F-rustrated
O-verdue
R-etail
D-elivery

 

[electruc]

Having owned Ford Hybrids since 2008 (2008 Escape and 2013 C-Max) I can say that I have never experienced a problem. The longest that I have ever left one without driving was for 15 days, no problems. Any non driving will just empty the hybrid battery from available electric propulsion as the battery can only be charged by the engine and regenerative braking (this is something I have not seen discussed yet, my C-Max has 75,000 miles and still haven't needed a brake job).

You need to think of the HV (High Voltage) battery differently than a 12V battery that is in your previous gasoline cars. They do not work the same. The 12v battery needs to be charged to start the engine, along with some electrics. If it is not, the car won't start/work. The HV battery is only for propulsion, so if there is no "reserve" you will only have the gas powered engine running, that is until the battery gets charged by the engine. Hence, there is no reason to keep a "trickle charge".

Side note, the cost to charge a HV battery costs more and so this keeps costs down. Notice the higher prices of Plug In Hybrid vehicles. However, those and pure Electric vehicles (also have owned a Nissan Leaf) do get HV battery conditioning when plugging in.

Did I understand your comment correctly, that the hybrid maverick's gasoline engine is started solely from the 12V battery? I got the impression from that video posted elsewhere here showing a Prius drivetrain from Professor John D. Kelly (WeberAuto channel), that the same generator/alternator motor in the drivetrain that is used to charge the hybrid battery is also used to start the engine. But that video did not get into details of the different voltage systems, how the alternator also charged the 12V battery in parallel to the high voltage hybrid battery.

Engine starting from 12V would be nice in that it would keep the traditional "jump start" interface in place. That then begs the question of what happens if the hybrid battery was "terminally dead", whether the truck would run more or less normally 100% of the time off gasoline if there was never any high voltage available. With just a drop in gas mileage and acceleration.

 

[electruc]

Agreed.
First, hybrids have been around for a while now but this is a first for a truck. A few are wary of the the HV battery because they do not understand them. Stop thinking of it as a battery in the traditional sense and start thinking of it as a reservoir/tank. No one here has worried about leaving gas in the car tank for 6 mos. without driving it. However, if the vehicle is not being driven for 6 mos. at a time, it kind of defeats the purpose of having better fuel economy.

Second, the manual HV battery storage suggestions are just a way for Ford to defer responsibility. How many of us have hybrid Mavericks (I'm one!) sitting in a hot desert location waiting for shipping and OKTB (Dec.8th and then probably a few more weeks?) releases?

Does anyone here really think Ford is starting them every 15 days and letting them run for 15 minutes???
C'mon man

I think this energy reservoir is a great way the think about the hybrid. It really highlights why they perform so well in city driving. And can help alleviate concerns about discharge during storage. In that most will not care if those stored electrons were lost if the battery sat unused for months and months. The economic value of that stored energy is not of concern.

However there are still questions about proper care and operation of the high voltage battery. As most are aware that factors such as heat, cold, over charging, deep discharging, fast charging, can affect different battery chemistries in different ways. I am trying to educate myself on their properties in order to make a better buying decision for a long term vehicle.

 

[NewBernWolf]

After watching the video, I am wondering if I should cancel my hybrid order. I'm a snowbird who leaves my vehicles in storage for 6 months at a time on both ends. Being unfamiliar with the hybrid high voltage battery, I didn't consider the impact of lengthy storage on long term battery life. Definitely need more information on this issue.

So you already know how the battery stores if you do this regularly. Hybrid battery is no different except it's bigger and has the ability to regenerate.

 

[Franks and Beans]

Did I understand your comment correctly, that the hybrid maverick's gasoline engine is started solely from the 12V battery? I got the impression from that video posted elsewhere here showing a Prius drivetrain from Professor John D. Kelly (WeberAuto channel), that the same generator/alternator motor in the drivetrain that is used to charge the hybrid battery is also used to start the engine. But that video did not get into details of the different voltage systems, how the alternator also charged the 12V battery in parallel to the high voltage hybrid battery.

Engine starting from 12V would be nice in that it would keep the traditional "jump start" interface in place. That then begs the question of what happens if the hybrid battery was "terminally dead", whether the truck would run more or less normally 100% of the time off gasoline if there was never any high voltage available. With just a drop in gas mileage and acceleration.

Well, I was being overly simplistic in trying to get people to understand the comparison between 12 volt and HV batteries in a hybrid. Obviously an internal combustion engine needs a generator/alternator but as anyone who has been stuck with a dead 12v battery, the engine isn't starting (I have had a few times when the 12v has been dead and my hybrid wouldn't start until after I got a jump). If the HV battery were indeed "fully dead" and not just totally discharged (empty), one might have trouble starting the car (it's never happened to me in 13 years).
I suggest Maverick people new to hybrid/evs start reading web sites devoted to those like greencarreports.com and insideevs.com. Here's a suggested article,

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101161_dead-hybrid-battery-what-should-i-do-owner-question

 

[DryHeat]

Obviously an internal combustion engine needs a generator/alternator but as anyone who has been stuck with a dead 12v battery, the engine isn't starting (I have had a few times when the 12v has been dead and my hybrid wouldn't start until after I got a jump).

I'm no expert on this, but my understanding was that hybrids won't start with a dead 12V battery because the 12V runs the electronics. The high-voltage (HV) battery, rather than the 12V, cranks the internal combustion engine to start it. But without the electronics, that won't happen.

The Maverick doesn't actually have an alternator. The 12V is charged by the same motor-generator that charges the HV battery (I think through a rectifier but I'm not sure). What I haven't heard is whether power from the HV battery is ever used to charge the 12V. I don't think it ever is -- because that could lead to full discharge of the HV battery in some circumstances -- but I'm not sure.

 

[Darnon]

I'm no expert on this, but my understanding was that hybrids won't start with a dead 12V battery because the 12V runs the electronics. The high-voltage (HV) battery, rather than the 12V, cranks the internal combustion engine to start it. But without the electronics, that won't happen.

The Maverick doesn't actually have an alternator. The 12V is charged by the same motor-generator that charges the HV battery (I think through a rectifier but I'm not sure). What I haven't heard is whether power from the HV battery is ever used to charge the 12V. I don't think it ever is -- because that could lead to full discharge of the HV battery in some circumstances -- but I'm not sure.

The 12V is charged via transformer from the HV battery. Since the HV battery is typically isolated via relay when the vehicle is shut off that's why it's recommended to also disconnect the 12V battery for long periods of disuse as it doesn't get charged. The battery management controller for the HVB maintains a fair-sized minimum SoC to prevent it ever really getting close to 'dead' especially since lithium batteries really don't like being deeply discharged.

 

[DryHeat]

The 12V is charged via transformer from the HV battery. Since the HV battery is typically isolated via relay when the vehicle is shut off that's why it's recommended to also disconnect the 12V battery for long periods of disuse as it doesn't get charged. The battery management controller for the HVB maintains a fair-sized minimum SoC to prevent it ever really getting close to 'dead' especially since lithium batteries really don't like being deeply discharged.

If I understand you right, the power flow is from the motor generator to the HV battery, then from the HV battery through a transformer to the 12V battery. But this doesn't happen when the vehicle is shut off, which is why the 12V can go dead while the HV remains sufficiently charged.

The result is similar to what I was thinking -- no charging when shut down -- but your explanation makes more sense. I must have misunderstood part of one of the Weber videos that went through all this.

 

[electruc]

So it does appear that both the 12V and HV battery need sufficient charge for the vehicle to start. Though it also seems the 12V is more likely to go flat due for most owners to its small size and chemistry.

I have just started to watch this series called "How do hybrids work" from the same mechanic that @Big_T mentioned in post #2. The first video in the series is posted below. It is for a Toyota hybrid, but it seems pretty clear that both batteries are needed. He does mention that letting the HV battery sit very long might result in the need to take the vehicle back to the dealer. That dealers have a high voltage charger, but some will not recharge them anyway due to liability. Though if it was a new battery that had sit, seems like they would. But that even one bad (discharged) cell might cause headaches.

 

[icegradner]

I haven't had an issue with my Toyota Camry Hybrid discharging, but it's never gone more than 10-12 days without a start in the 6 years I've owned it. That only happened due to crazy snow storms that kept me home. At the 10 day mark the battery was still showing more than half a charge. Of course the Camry I have has a Ni-MH battery, which is less sensitive to cold weather voltage drops than a lithium ion pack.

 

[Criss944]

Letting a car sit for extended periods of time is hard on the everything. Batters go dead, tires get flat spots. seals dry out, on and on.
How bout, forget flying and consider one car and auto train.

 

[Automate]

My Fusion hybrid had an airbag recall but no replacement airbags were available. Ford considered it unsafe to drive the car so they made me park it and gave me a rental car. After 4 months of no use the 12V battery needed a jump but the HV battery was fine.

 

[mamboman777]

I can't answer all of your questions. I'll post a video below, at 6:25 he discusses if a hybrid is the right choice for you. This fellow is very experienced on Toyota hybrids which the Ford system is similar to.

If you're going to leave the vehicle unused for a couple of months at a time on a regular basis, I would say a hybrid is not for you.

You can't trickle charge the high voltage battery. You would need a plug-in hybrid for that. Remember the HV battery is 300 volts!

now....the Maverick hybrid is liquid cooled, vs the prius air cooled, right? thats the filter hes going on about, right?

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