What happens when tuners realize the hybrid HP/TQ numbers?

[AutobahnSHO]

The entire first page missed the most obvious, so I skipped the 2nd page of this thread.

The biggest issue with the hybrid drivetrain (electric side) and the one all the other EV manufacturers deal with, is HEAT.

You can throw the biggest battery and biggest motor in any vehicle and get the fastest speed ever, it'll promptly burn itself up. Balancing repeat charge and discharge cycles on the battery, as well as cooling the motor(s) is what Tesla, Porsche etc... spend tons of work on.

If the car (pickup) is going to last more than one track lap, it has to be carefully managed. The hybrid Maverick powertrain is meant to last 10+ years of regular use. It was engineered to be affordable. Sure spending lots of money & engineering to wedge more battery and cooling somewhere could be possible, but would compromise the daily driving and longevity.

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[colinl]

The entire first page missed the most obvious, so I skipped the 2nd page of this thread.

The biggest issue with the hybrid drivetrain (electric side) and the one all the other EV manufacturers deal with, is HEAT.

You can throw the biggest battery and biggest motor in any vehicle and get the fastest speed ever, it'll promptly burn itself up. Balancing repeat charge and discharge cycles on the battery, as well as cooling the motor(s) is what Tesla, Porsche etc... spend tons of work on.

If the car (pickup) is going to last more than one track lap, it has to be carefully managed. The hybrid Maverick powertrain is meant to last 10+ years of regular use. It was engineered to be affordable. Sure spending lots of money & engineering to wedge more battery and cooling somewhere could be possible, but would compromise the daily driving and longevity.

on page 1 I said premature failure.

on page 2 I said fire.

op states a belief in tuning as easily as one might tune an ecoboost and a belief that the powertrain is and/or can support roughly 400 hp.

nothing could be further from the truth but with these things it's hard to know if he's trolling or just that misinformed.

 

[heady]

Tuning for performance pretty much always implies decreased longevity, I don't think anyone would find that controversial. No one expects an electric nedra dragster or a formula e car to go 200,000 miles; but this isn't unique to any drivetrain. A significant portion of what I wrote addressed heat as a major concern, this again is unsurprising to anyone who's tuned, pretty much anything, I imagine.

It's quite possible no one with a hybrid Maverick will get into tuning them, normally people pick up the electric drive train components out of older or wrecked cars and use them in other project cars. Most of the DIY mods I've seen on factory EV and PHEV are adding range, but not power. I figure domestics have had a better hotrod culture in the US, but of course that's not universal across all makes and models.

For most folks here that just want most of what's available out of this power train combo with standard reliability and power, that can just wait until the PHEV model comes out, assuming it does. Not as much fun, but it satisfies the bulk of the commuter segment surely.

 

[heady]

on page 1 I said premature failure.

on page 2 I said fire.

op states a belief in tuning as easily as one might tune an ecoboost and a belief that the powertrain is and/or can support roughly 400 hp.

nothing could be further from the truth but with these things it's hard to know if he's trolling or just that misinformed.

You clearly demonstrate a complete absence of any requisite basic knowledge about electric drivetrains, and little to no curiosity about the subject, I had assumed you were trolling hence why most of your replies were just ignored.

 

[colinl]

You clearly demonstrate a complete absence of any requisite basic knowledge about electric drivetrains, and little to no curiosity about the subject, I had assumed you were trolling hence why most of your replies were just ignored.

yeah, that's why you have other replies questioning the feasibility or wisdom of your ideas.

just prove it, man. and after you are wildly successful with your truck, then you can make some products with the stuff you develop, and open a store called Fast eMavericks. you'll get tons of orders from the true believers!

 

[heady]

People that tune cars don't really care about feasibility or wisdom in my experience, they care about making stuff go fast. When I was very young, I cared about that too. My tuning days started in the 90's, before I got into electric stuff I was on a little mailing list called GMECM, where we would take old GM ECU's and modify them to tune early EFI systems - most people have probably never heard of that group. But, one thing most grassroots motorsports and tinkerers have heard of is Megasquirt which was born out of that group - and for which I was in the very first Bowling and Grippo group buy, and I still have that V1.0 ECU sitting somewhere in a box in the garage.

When it comes to electrics, I was always content with just making and using practical "normal" power things, but the most fun was and still is had by the guys pushing the limits, like my friend Luke in the video above. Watching some crazy dude do the unthinkable, like the White Zombie dragster or Luke's creations was vastly more entertaining than the day to day normal projects most of us get up to!

 

[AutobahnSHO]

You clearly demonstrate a complete absence of any requisite basic knowledge about electric drivetrains, and little to no curiosity about the subject, I had assumed you were trolling hence why most of your replies were just ignored.

And EVERYTHING you've typed for pages has ignored everything regarding the single biggest issue holding EVs back from just "hot rodding" by slapping bigger batteries and motors in. The cooling.

 

[heady]

And EVERYTHING you've typed for pages has ignored everything regarding the single biggest issue holding EVs back from just "hot rodding" by slapping bigger batteries and motors in. The cooling.

Heat and thermal limits were mentioned from the second post I made forward, in posts #3, #12, #14, #16, and explained in much more detail in #23. Bigger motors were never mentioned in this thread until your last post there in #37, and generally speaking would neither be necessary nor desirable for most purposes unless you needed a longer endurance at very high output, like track racing/formula E/TT Zero style competition.

 

[Carlitos_92]

...open a store called Fast eMavericks.

Too soon, too soon.

 

[AutobahnSHO]

Heat and thermal limits were mentioned from the second post I made forward, in posts #3, #12, #14, #16, and explained in much more detail in #23. Bigger motors were never mentioned in this thread until your last post there in #37, and generally speaking would neither be necessary nor desirable for most purposes unless you needed a longer endurance at very high output, like track racing/formula E/TT Zero style competition.

LOL ok you 'mentioned' heat but haven't addressed cooling still.

 

[heady]

LOL ok you 'mentioned' heat but haven't addressed cooling still.

Realistically, because it very likely won't need addressed using factory parts, which I would have thought would be obvious... The factory inverters are not going to have IGBT's large enough to push MG2 much past 126 HP or MG1 past 100 HP. Those are numbers any PHEV would be rolling down the road with day in and day out. Thermal is not going to be a major consideration until you get to the point of using aftermarket inverters or replacing the final drivers in the factory TCM.

The main limitation a tuner is likely to face is the output from MG1 while the engine is running; not due to the thermal considerations, but due to the mechanical coupling configuration. Because the crankshaft is connected to the planet carrier and the MG1 is connected to the sun gear, the RPM of those two power inputs are not RPM independent; you'll want to keep the engine at the HP peak during WOT, and the RPM of MG1 will always be fixed in relation to that. The RPM limitation means MG1 will likely never be able to approach 100 HP with the engine on. You can command the inverter for MG1 and 2 to max current/torque, but the RPM will be slow enough on MG1 to restrict the kw throughput pretty severely based on the mechanical coupling design.

You can run MG2 at 126 HP or whatever the the likely minor headroom current limit is available on the stock TCM probably until battery depletion; you need a significant battery size before you'd care much about heat for as long as the charge would last pulling 93kw out of the cells.

 

[colinl]

Bigger motors were never mentioned in this thread until your last post there in #37, and generally speaking would neither be necessary nor desirable for most purposes unless you needed a longer endurance at very high output, like track racing/formula E/TT Zero style competition.

you're just making shit up as you go! love it. so now we're talking more about electric kart conversions, all those pesky 2 stroke shifter karts are perfect candidates for swapping to electric and this is exactly the same as 'tuning' a maverick hybrid!

you aren't getting more output from the electric motors without premature failure unless you are talking about changing the windings, magnets, etc.

mr self-proclaimed expert, what do you suppose the outcome would be if a person were to change the windings and magnets in the Maverick's exist electrical motors? what effect does this have on an electric motor/generator?

do you think, perhaps, that might be more feasible than other electrical motor upgrades that are less than simply ripping out the entire hybrid powertrain and installing an electric motor to turn it into a BEV? (anyone can put a tesla powertrain into a vehicle, it just takes a lot of money and a lot of welding fabrication.)

you didn't understand the significance of my comment and instead started talking about increasing voltage and current, and multiple times used a freaking e-bike as your reference, or proof of concept for maverick hybrid upgrades, as it were.

 

[heady]

you aren't getting more output from the electric motors without premature failure unless you are talking about changing the windings, magnets, etc. this is NOT at all like tuning a gas powertrain.

This comment wasn't addressed because it is incorrect. The electric motors are rated at 126 and 100 hp from the transaxle manufacturer, and are tasked with only 36 HP because they are attached to a small, significantly lower voltage battery in a mild hybrid. Running electric motors at a duty cycle and voltage they were manufactured for is clearly unlikely to lead to premature failure, and to believe otherwise is irrational.

Further, "changing magnets and windings" is not important to achieve more power from an electric motor, as long as you don't need more torque you can just increase the voltage and change the gearing if needed; no significant additional mechanical or thermal stress results from this kind of power increase as long as you aren't running so fast you are over speeding shaft bearings. This is incredibly basic stuff that you clearly don't have a background in.

 

[colinl]

change the gearing

LOL it's pretty obvious what you really know here.

 

[OWP]

I'm not the one being attacked here, but I will butt in and ask: Why do people just need to disagree so loudly? Someone wants to discuss something and it turns into this immature "prove it" over and over again. If you don't agree then leave it at that, constantly arguing screams of some need for validation.
If discussion won't do and proof is needed so badly then let the guy who disagrees prove it doesn't work. Why make someone else do the experiment for you?

I think there is money left on the table as far as making a hybrid quicker, I have my doubts on how simple that is since I haven't looked into it since the first gen Prius.

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