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grumpyunk

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I think what he was trying to say is that because they are only making a $20 wage Tesla workers can't afford to buy a house there. If a large plant all the sudden raises wages I'm pretty sure the housing prices will follow so not sure how that makes the houses more affordable.
Plopping a new large plant in a rural area will increase housing demand... and there may not be excess housing available... IF there are a lot of employees moving to the locale of the new plant instead of locals being hired into the plant. I.e., more new people >> higher home prices. Nothing new, and not caused by wage rates. But $20/hr jobs should not cause a stampede. And current market has more open jobs than people willing to fill them. Apparently.
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Mav_RICK

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Currently, the Rear-Wheel Drive trim of the Tesla Model 3 starts at an MSRP of $40,240 with zero upgrades
The base XL trim F150 starts at $33,695
I guess my question would be if everyone only bought the XL trim would Ford workers be able to be paid the wages they get? Sincere question.
 

fossil

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I guess my question would be if everyone only bought the XL trim would Ford workers be able to be paid the wages they get? Sincere question.
Serious reply, flip that to the Model 3 and ask the same question about their wages.
 

Mav_RICK

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Serious reply, flip that to the Model 3 and ask the same question about their wages.
The difference is that Tesla’s bread and butter are the 40-60 k vehicles and I believe they would be just fine selling just those. They are in fact lowering their prices even more.

If Ford only sold XL models I think they would go belly up. Ford is depending on its ICE vehicle right now to keep their EV movement going and it’s clear their bread and butter ICE vehicles are moving slow. They can’t hardly move their EV line at all. Tesla sees that and is dropping the hammer.

I think Ford has to lower prices dramatically to survive, Tesla needs to lower as well but not as much. Labor costs are a factor here.
 

fossil

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The difference is that Tesla’s bread and butter are the 40-60 k vehicles and I believe they would be just fine selling just those. They are in fact lowering their prices even more.

If Ford only sold XL models I think they would go belly up. Ford is depending on its ICE vehicle right now to keep their EV movement going and it’s clear their bread and butter ICE vehicles are moving slow. They can’t hardly move their EV line at all. Tesla sees that and is dropping the hammer.

I think Ford has to lower prices dramatically to survive, Tesla needs to lower as well but not as much. Labor costs are a factor here.
Yes and if they only sold XL Mavericks they would be thousand$ more than today but they are not and they won't. The XL are there just as the Model 3s for entry level.
Like any good company, Ford is reading the tea and adjusting the EV plan, going with more hybrid models and pushing the full EVs further out. If you follow the news you already know that.

yesterdays Wall street Journal

Ford Raises Profit Forecast Despite Steeper EV Losses
Quarterly net profit nearly tripled, but company pushes back timeline for EV output


Seems Ford is beating their own predictions, the expert predictions and yours btw.
 

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realshelby

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History repeats itself.
We are in a period where "management" makes exorbitant pay. While labor gets by.
People that don't like Unions will say many things. But history shows that when you take advantage of labor that makes them want to unionize.
People that like Unions will say many things. But history shows that when production and flexibility go down, production gets moved overseas.
History shows there has always been Robber Barons. Of one sort or another. I am hoping in today's world of social media that the old ways of screwing over labor just because you can will also cause an embargo on business operations that operate that way.
 

Timothyd

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you can google your own info or have a talking head spoon feed ya, your choice
I'm in a union. The talking heads are all sleezebag union officials
 

fossil

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I'm in a union. The talking heads are all sleezebag union officials
I'm going to assume those sleazebags were elected, you know what to do. If they have popular support you're stuck.
 

Mav_RICK

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Yes and if they only sold XL Mavericks they would be thousand$ more than today but they are not and they won't. The XL are there just as the Model 3s for entry level.
Like any good company, Ford is reading the tea and adjusting the EV plan, going with more hybrid models and pushing the full EVs further out. If you follow the news you already know that.

yesterdays Wall street Journal

Ford Raises Profit Forecast Despite Steeper EV Losses
Quarterly net profit nearly tripled, but company pushes back timeline for EV output


Seems Ford is beating their own predictions, the expert predictions and yours btw.
Well believe me I am pulling for Ford but it might be a little soon to say they are beating predictions. I think you would agree that a large number of Maverick buyers would be F150 buyers if they were priced lower. Most Maverick XL buyers except fleet would be XLT or Lariat buyers if not for those prices being as high as they are.
 

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How does $20/hr wage rate cause a shortage of affordable housing? Tesla wage rate
My point is that line workers at Tesla making 40K per year have a very hard time finding an apartment in Austin when the median rent is around $2000 a month. Buying a house is out of the question. So Travis County and the City are using taxpayer funds to subsidize the construction of affordable housing units for low wage earners. This is after the richest man in the world already received incentives and property tax rebates. Elon has even floated the idea of building company housing, which harkens back to the era when robber barons had company towns constructed next to the mines and plants and is a common practice today in China. In the 30's and 40's after the labor movement arose and scored better wages for their members they then could afford to rent or purchase their own homes. Of course Musk is vehemently anti-union and has been cited numerous times in CA and TX for safety violations.
 
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Old Ford Guy

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How does $20/hr wage rate cause a shortage of affordable housing? Tesla wage rate does not reduce or increase the affordable housing in the housing market.
As far as Tesla workers being able to afford the vehicle they build, what about Ford/GM/Stellantis workers being able to afford $100k F-150's, Chevrolet Silverados and Grand Cherokees? Tesla lowered the price of their product. The other 3 have raised theirs. Seems Tesla(not my fave brand obviously being on a Mav site) has made THEIR products closer to being affordable by their employees than the other 3 makers.
Sorry but thats just not accurate, Ford just lowered the MSRP on the F150 Lghting by i believe some $5000 in response to Telsa & others price reductions. also Ford & GM & Stellantis have employee discounts that offer significant discounts off of MSRP that may not be as large as they should be but certainly help the workers purchase what they produce. Telsa and EVERY other OEM that i'am aware of would give their left you know what to sell trucks with the volumes & customer loyalty that Ford has for decades.
 

grumpyunk

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Sorry but thats just not accurate, Ford just lowered the MSRP on the F150 Lghting by i believe some $5000 in response to Telsa & others price reductions. also Ford & GM & Stellantis have employee discounts that offer significant discounts off of MSRP that may not be as large as they should be but certainly help the workers purchase what they produce. Telsa and EVERY other OEM that i'am aware of would give their left you know what to sell trucks with the volumes & customer loyalty that Ford has for decades.
Even taking into account that there was a recent reduction in the Mach and F-150 Lightning, you cannot say with a straight face that they all have not increased their MSRP significantly over the past few years. I know that an average transaction in the $70-k range is a lot, and is more than most employees could afford. The old dealer rule of 10% of gross income should be the max monthly payment indicates for a lot of the vehicles on the lot that their MSRP is above the line as far as a purchase with normal credit. Even with 8 year terms, many vehicles are too pricey for the pay rates. The number of days of inventory indicate a slowed sales rate, and thus the left-whatever volume is currently reducing, loyalty being attacked by recall and quality problems, and the members here have indicated their displeasure at the slow dragged-out response to demand. Ford is not doing things very well, IMO. No one else has to agree with my opinion, but figures indicate they may have made some bad moves. Who will buy a Mach-e when a Tesla with better tech and lower price is available? That may be why they are piling up on some dealer lots. Next step will be cash on the hood for potential buyers. All makers produced their 'platinum' level products to maximize profit on lower sales figures due to a virus and apparent lack of ICs to stuff into circuit boards. The product mix has left those who work the line looking, but likely, even with discounts, not buying at the rate previously seen. Again, opinion, but I think FoMoCo has put their foot in it. Back when I was a kid, the came out with the Falcon and Mustang and went from zero sales per year to hundreds of thousands. They could and did shift production to meet demand. They have not done so for the Bronco, Bronco Sport, and Maverick. The cash-cow crew who work on the F-150 likely pushed to keep production down to make sure the cash cow was not trimmed of its sales by the newcomer. They are the same crew that stomped on the Ranger until it was killed, and are not likely doing the same for fear the Maverick will steal F-150 sales. They have weight in the boardroom because of the dollars the product brings in. They also think people will be upsold to a F-1560 who came in to inspect a Maverick for possible purchase. If they think that, my take is they should get out of Dearborn more often, and take a look at what the products are being used for. I agree with multiple voices that the pickup truck market has been stuffed with fancy, full-featured, over-equipped units that are priced above what the average consumer can afford. Glad I do not own stock an any of the three USA producers. I am not and will never be in the market for an F-150 of any sort. It would cost more than many houses, and would not fit in my garage, and I cannot ever expect to reach into the bed for anything. Someone decided they all should be super-sized, and they all went for it. But I will not be looking, much less buying.
As far as lowering price, they have not done so significantly enough from the MSRP on the sticker, and their dealers(some) have not gotten the word that money is tight, inflation is strong no matter the mutterings of the officials, and fuel prices are going up once again. Having a lot full of $100k product in that circumstance calls for larger decreases, and the mustang sedan is no where close to Tesla product which sells for less. The Ligntning retail had risen 5 or 6 times that $5k you mention since its original introduction, to $5k is peanuts. They make tentative moves instead of bold, and will lilkely pay the price in slower sales, and perhaps reduced worker hours as the glut of product is slowly reduced. Not too many years ago a base F-150 could be had for less than $30k, and in one instance, right around $20k. Try to find one that is affordable on a local lot, I think you will be looking for a needle in the proverbial haystack. Very few base, and few Super Cabs are produced, much less regular cabs. You can find them, but you have to search far and wide.
tom
 
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Mav_RICK

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My point is that line workers at Tesla making 40K per year have a very hard time finding an apartment in Austin when the median rent is around $2000 a month. Buying a house is out of the question. So Travis County and the City are using taxpayer funds to subsidize the construction of affordable housing units for low wage earners. This is after the richest man in the world already received incentives and property tax rebates. Elon has even floated the idea of building company housing, which harkens back to the era when robber barons had company towns constructed next to the mines and plants and is a common practice today in China. In the 30's and 40's after the labor movement arose and scored better wages for their members they then could afford to rent or purchase their own homes. Of course Musk is vehemently anti-union and has been cited numerous times in CA and TX for safety violations.
The thing is it doesn’t matter if your employees can’t build a house or pay rent close to your factory. What matters is what you can sell your product for. Austin is a high tech town with lots of high and often over-paid tech workers. They are paid well enough to live right in town. That doesn’t mean the line worker should get paid the same.

In the real world especially in certain areas certain people just have to drive further to get to work. Throwing more money at the worker does not make housing more affordable. If there was a mistake made it was building a car factory in Austin.

I’m sure the big three are also loaded down with non value added employees that need to go and should have never been there. Line workers are the backbone of the company and are vital.
 
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grumpyunk

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My point is that line workers at Tesla making 40K per year have a very hard time finding an apartment in Austin when the median rent is around $2000 a month. Buying a house is out of the question. So Travis County and the City are using taxpayer funds to subsidize the construction of affordable housing units for low wage earners. This is after the richest man in the world already received incentives and property tax rebates. Elon has even floated the idea of building company housing, which harkens back to the era when robber barons had company towns constructed next to the mines and plants and is a common practice today in China. In the 30's and 40's after the labor movement arose and scored better wages for their members they then could afford to rent or purchase their own homes. Of course Musk is vehemently anti-union and has been cited numerous times in CA and TX for safety violations.
What does Tesla pay the line workers in Fremont? The SF Bay Area has housing costs that would make your jaw drop. I have no idea how anyone can afford to buy a home anywhere close to work.
A F-150 was mentioned at a $38k base. Betta nickel there are zero available on any lot.

I for one am not and will likely never be in the market for an F-150. My bet is that there are few others who want a Maverick that would want one if they could get it as a substitute. I could very well be mistaken, but the two are not in the same market. Fuel use alone separates them, add in reach to the truck bed and the pure volume they take up, and they are not even close to competitors. IMO.
tom
 

Old Man

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Unions/workers and big business have been on a pendulum for hundreds of years in the world. One time business rules, another unions. They are both good and both bad. In autmotive it is a lot different than 50 years ago. Most jobs now are machine-assisted - like a supported tool that screws on the lug nuts with a worker guiding it, ergonomic chairs to sit on while clipping in a part. The plants are cleaner, safer, machines do the dangerous work like welding. The work isn't that difficult these days compared to the past.
And union workers get paid for not working. If the plant has to shut down for a few days for most reasons they get paid a percentage of pay. Who else gets that (salaried management)? I can give a couple of examples of how unions are misused. When I was a consultant at UP the yardmaster told me a train was an hour late pulling out. He went out and found both crew members in the cab asleep. He wrote them up. They told the review board one of them was thinking about putting a sunroof in his truck and they both had their eyes closed, picturing it. They won. The track crews went out on strike and the IT people had to stay out losing pay even though their work is not related. The IT workers finally decertified their union. So both sides have problems and because unions may of gotten some concessions into common workplace it doesn't mean it wouldn't of happened anyway without unions.
What is important now is for people thay have orders. With the UAW president making demands and saying past union presidents have been soft on negotiating. He wants 40% increase over 4 years, COLA adjustments, more pension, more time off. If the big 3 decide to say no and the union goes on strike how does that impact Maverick builds? Even though it is in Mexico there are probably union made components that won't make it down there. And with JIT inventory systems there aren't warehouses of parts waiting to be used. And can railroad unions transport union made cars during a strike?
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