Request - Disable / Reconfigure BMS

[rallyshark]

That amp is designed to operate as low as 11v, and shouldn't be popping fuses at anything over 12v. I don't feel like any charging system change or upgrade is going to solve this problem. Of course, I certainly could be wrong... If we are to assume all is well with the amplifier itself, then the power wiring is where I'd start digging. I'm assuming good wire quality and gauge, so that would make me look at the ground first and foremost. I had to grind down some paint(even though using factory ground point) to get my amp to cool down a little(Audison SR5.600), FWIW. Oh, and make sure you're running a dedicated turn on lead and DO NOT use the auto sensing turn on. These trucks send voltage through the speaker wires when no audio is present and will cause the amps to turn on anytime the truck is messed with, even when no key is present.

The other thing I'll mention would be having the factory EQ set to Flat in Forscan. I know the processors/DSPs can get past the factory equalization, but they have to really push the limits to bring back the low end if factory EQ isn't set to flat. The factory "EQ" setting has a massive cut below 40hz, to the point of it being a high pass crossover essentially. Setting it to flat fixes that cut. I know you're probably aware of that, but I figured I'd throw it out there just in case.

The only other thing I can think of would if input levels/gain settings are turned up too high. I know that, and some of my other suggestions are simple stuff that you're probably aware of, but sometimes even the most knowledgeable among us go down the rabbit hole and overlook the most obvious problems. God knows I've done it many times, and I'm a technician, haha. I solve problems for living and often have to catch myself from making things more complicated than they are. The simplest answer is usually the right one is all I'm saying Hopefully, something I said was helpful. I don't really have any other ideas off the top of my head right now.

Sponsored

 

[tysonbisme]

That amp is designed to operate as low as 11v, and shouldn't be popping fuses at anything over 12v. I don't feel like any charging system change or upgrade is going to solve this problem. Of course, I certainly could be wrong... If we are to assume all is well with the amplifier itself, then the power wiring is where I'd start digging. I'm assuming good wire quality and gauge, so that would make me look at the ground first and foremost. I had to grind down some paint(even though using factory ground point) to get my amp to cool down a little(Audison SR5.600), FWIW. Oh, and make sure you're running a dedicated turn on lead and DO NOT use the auto sensing turn on. These trucks send voltage through the speaker wires when no audio is present and will cause the amps to turn on anytime the truck is messed with, even when no key is present.

The other thing I'll mention would be having the factory EQ set to Flat in Forscan. I know the processors/DSPs can get past the factory equalization, but they have to really push the limits to bring back the low end if factory EQ isn't set to flat. The factory "EQ" setting has a massive cut below 40hz, to the point of it being a high pass crossover essentially. Setting it to flat fixes that cut. I know you're probably aware of that, but I figured I'd throw it out there just in case.

The only other thing I can think of would if input levels/gain settings are turned up too high. I know that, and some of my other suggestions are simple stuff that you're probably aware of, but sometimes even the most knowledgeable among us go down the rabbit hole and overlook the most obvious problems. God knows I've done it many times, and I'm a technician, haha. I solve problems for living and often have to catch myself from making things more complicated than they are. The simplest answer is usually the right one is all I'm saying Hopefully, something I said was helpful. I don't really have any other ideas off the top of my head right now.

EQ has been flattened in Forscan. There is a dedicated remote wire.

The AP F8.9 bit automatically sets gains based on my speaker level inputs.

I am an IT tech too - believe me, wires are the name of the game

For grounding - right now, I have a 2 gauge OFC wire running both power and ground (2 separate runs) from the battery directly up front, all the way to the rear distribution blocks. FWIW, I have done this on systems that are 5000w+ RMS with no issue. Not sure what the difference would be here, honestly.

I've never had an amp run as hot as this AP F1D. Ever. Perhaps I should do a second ground from the factory point in the rear to the dist block. Getting tired of chasing my own tail though, tbh.

 

[rallyshark]

EQ has been flattened in Forscan. There is a dedicated remote wire.

The AP F8.9 bit automatically sets gains based on my speaker level inputs.

I am an IT tech too - believe me, wires are the name of the game

For grounding - right now, I have a 2 gauge OFC wire running both power and ground (2 separate runs) from the battery directly up front, all the way to the rear distribution blocks. FWIW, I have done this on systems that are 5000w+ RMS with no issue. Not sure what the difference would be here, honestly.

I've never had an amp run as hot as this AP F1D. Ever. Perhaps I should do a second ground from the factory point in the rear to the dist block. Getting tired of chasing my own tail though, tbh.

I have heard a few Audison guys mention they like short grounds, but that was never really an issue for most of my installs. I usually managed to keep them under 2ft anyway. I think the additional short rear ground is definitely worth a try. I will say, my Audison runs pretty warm, but not super hot. I've never had it pop a fuse. It has been kicking along for about a year now. I hear ya on the tail chasing. It can be so frustrating, especially with car audio. Let us know what happens. I'm very curious on this one. I hope you figure it out man.

 

[MakinDoForNow]

The problem is that amplifiers do not last long when voltage fluctuates 2 and a half volts. Not only do they get hot, but when you're driving them as hard as you can (1 ohm impedance on a AP F1D), low voltage causes onboard fuses to blow, more heat at the amps than necessary, etc.

I may try unplugging the BMS to see if I can get a higher stable charging voltage, at the expensive of the battery / alternator life. I've never had a vehicle charge this way, so it's definitely a bit odd.

It seems that other forum users have also been able to increase voltage by manipulating the SoC target in Forscan.

Install a DCDC converter Buck Booster that will input 9-36 volts from truck and will output stable 12/12.4/12.8/13 or whatever selectable voltage you want to feed your amplifier. Don't try to get exact voltage from truck. When cold weather hits I have seen as much as 15.6v on my 12v bus.

 

[colinl]

I've never had an amp run as hot as this AP F1D. Ever. Perhaps I should do a second ground from the factory point in the rear to the dist block. Getting tired of chasing my own tail though, tbh.

seems likely to me that the amp is either bad or something wrong with installation.

pull it and put it on a test bench. you're probably ignoring the possibility of a bad amp just because it's an expensive, top rated brand. it still could be bad.

 

[justiz00]

In the regal world, if you unplugged the BMS at the battery terminal, the alternator would charge at full voltage. Not sure if the same applies here. They were getting a BMS DTC though, but no other issues. The regal had the same low state of charge issues eating batteries right out of warranty.

 

[tysonbisme]

I have heard a few Audison guys mention they like short grounds, but that was never really an issue for most of my installs. I usually managed to keep them under 2ft anyway. I think the additional short rear ground is definitely worth a try. I will say, my Audison runs pretty warm, but not super hot. I've never had it pop a fuse. It has been kicking along for about a year now. I hear ya on the tail chasing. It can be so frustrating, especially with car audio. Let us know what happens. I'm very curious on this one. I hope you figure it out man.

Thank you for the words of encouragement.

Mine runs so hot I can't put my hand on it for... more than a few seconds. When it was 75-80 outside, I measured 165F on the heatsink.

It occurred to me last night that, whenever I ran a power and ground (large gauge) from the battery back, I always had another battery (lithium or supercapacitor bank) that those ran to. Given that, my grounds at the amplifiers were always within a few feet of a good grounding source.

So, given that, I'm likely going to strip the paint away near the factory rear grounding spot and run a 2 AWG grounding wire from that to my distribution block, and keep the 2 AWG ground running to the battery for signal noise purposes.

Probably even more interesting - I've now been seeing 14.35+v after my drives, at idle, with no accessories on. Why? Beats me.

 

[tysonbisme]

seems likely to me that the amp is either bad or something wrong with installation.

pull it and put it on a test bench. you're probably ignoring the possibility of a bad amp just because it's an expensive, top rated brand. it still could be bad.

I'm thinking more and more that I should add in a ground to the body at the factory grounding point in the rear. Even though I have a stout ground running to the front, perhaps it is not doing me too many favors when it isn't combined with a second battery.

 

[tysonbisme]

In the regal world, if you unplugged the BMS at the battery terminal, the alternator would charge at full voltage. Not sure if the same applies here. They were getting a BMS DTC though, but no other issues. The regal had the same low state of charge issues eating batteries right out of warranty.

I think for this to occur you need to have several drive cycles before the PCM side sorts itself out to constantly charge. This may be an option, as I am recalling now that all vehicles I have had needed either the BMS unplugged, or the alternator signal wires unplugged, to keep constant charging.

Some odd stuff here, folks.

 

[colinl]

I'm thinking more and more that I should add in a ground to the body at the factory grounding point in the rear. Even though I have a stout ground running to the front, perhaps it is not doing me too many favors when it isn't combined with a second battery.

oh. I *ALWAYS* use a short ground and never re-use a factory ground because I don't know what is using it. some factory components are likely noisy, such as a lariat rear window motor.

I would say using a ground distribution block is fine also as long as each amp has a short run to the ground block. if one is longer, bearing in mind the current draw, it could be better to use separate grounds for each amp.

ground loops don't do this, though. I doubt noise / distortion is causing your heat. one would think if that were the case you'd hear the distortion, even if it is a sub.

 

[tysonbisme]

oh. I *ALWAYS* use a short ground and never re-use a factory ground because I don't know what is using it. some factory components are likely noisy, such as a lariat rear window motor.

I would say using a ground distribution block is fine also as long as each amp has a short run to the ground block. if one is longer, bearing in mind the current draw, it could be better to use separate grounds for each amp.

ground loops don't do this, though. I doubt noise / distortion is causing your heat. one would think if that were the case you'd hear the distortion, even if it is a sub.

They do. The ground runs to each amps are within 2-3ft, tops.

However, that distribution block gets its ground from a 12 foot (roughly) or so run up to the front battery. My thought is that the shorter run from the back (possibly at the child restraint bracket) would help in this situation.

Won't know til I try it.

 

[Silver23]

EQ has been flattened in Forscan. There is a dedicated remote wire.

The AP F8.9 bit automatically sets gains based on my speaker level inputs.

I am an IT tech too - believe me, wires are the name of the game

For grounding - right now, I have a 2 gauge OFC wire running both power and ground (2 separate runs) from the battery directly up front, all the way to the rear distribution blocks. FWIW, I have done this on systems that are 5000w+ RMS with no issue. Not sure what the difference would be here, honestly.

I've never had an amp run as hot as this AP F1D. Ever. Perhaps I should do a second ground from the factory point in the rear to the dist block. Getting tired of chasing my own tail though, tbh.

You ran cable to the battery under the hood from the neg of the amp? Don't do that. Ground it close to the amp. I know it's heavy gauge but still it's a long run of cable that is not necessary. Basically it's like running what you have double the length.

So is it actually blowing fuses?

Have you checked the voltage at the amp while it's hitting hard bass compared to at the battery?(voltage drop)

Have you considered running a big cap at the amp? I've never done that but you could explore if they really work.

Sometimes I really wonder how stable a "1 ohm stable" amp really is at 1 ohm. That is so close to a direct short. lol

Are you really just wanting more power by running a higher voltage?? If that's the case a bigger amp is the way, not overcharging the battery.

 

[colinl]

They do. The ground runs to each amps are within 2-3ft, tops.

However, that distribution block gets its ground from a 12 foot (roughly) or so run up to the front battery. My thought is that the shorter run from the back (possibly at the child restraint bracket) would help in this situation.

Won't know til I try it.

well that's... odd. I would never run a ground that long in general, and you do not want to ground to the battery in any Ford and probably anything else with a battery monitor. anything on the negative terminal can/will interfere with the BMS. it's somewhere in the owner's manual, connect nothing on the negative terminal.

I always keep a ground under 2', under a foot if I can manage it.

it should take you less than 10 min to create a new ground. find a flat spot on the main chassis (not a brace, spar, or curved surface), scratch off a dime-sized spot of paint with steel wool or sandpaper, drill a tiny pilot hole, 1/2" self-tapping sheet metal screw, done.

 

[tysonbisme]

You ran cable to the battery under the hood from the neg of the amp? Don't do that. Ground it close to the amp. I know it's heavy gauge but still it's a long run of cable that is not necessary. Basically it's like running what you have double the length.

So is it actually blowing fuses?

Have you checked the voltage at the amp while it's hitting hard bass compared to at the battery?(voltage drop)

Have you considered running a big cap at the amp? I've never done that but you could explore if they really work.

Sometimes I really wonder how stable a "1 ohm stable" amp really is at 1 ohm. That is so close to a direct short. lol

Are you really just wanting more power by running a higher voltage?? If that's the case a bigger amp is the way, not overcharging the battery.

No. I stated there is a distribution block. The large ground runs from the batt neg post to the dist block out back, then from dist block to amps. same for power, except the power runs have fusing on them.

Yes - it blew the 2 spade fuses on the amp itself. Power fuse is fine.

Supercapacitor banks do really work. I used a XS Power SB630 in a 2021 Hyundai Accent and was able to drive 2.5kw RMS @ 1 ohm with very little voltage drop.

There are 0.5 ohm stable amps that produce tens of thousands of watts that run just fine. Lots of people run down that low.

No, I am wanting a stable charge voltage that doesn't change, lol. Not more power. THe more power fluctuates, the less efficient the amplifier - and it is hard on the power components in the amp. It's the same reason you don't want tons of voltage drop while playing.

 

[tysonbisme]

well that's... odd. I would never run a ground that long in general, and you do not want to ground to the battery in any Ford and probably anything else with a battery monitor. anything on the negative terminal can/will interfere with the BMS. it's somewhere in the owner's manual, connect nothing on the negative terminal.

I always keep a ground under 2', under a foot if I can manage it.

it should take you less than 10 min to create a new ground. find a flat spot on the main chassis (not a brace, spar, or curved surface), scratch off a dime-sized spot of paint with steel wool or sandpaper, drill a tiny pilot hole, 1/2" self-tapping sheet metal screw, done.

It's a very common practice in car audio and has been for many years. It helps reduce noise in the output signals, etc. and is necessary when running additional batteries as well.

It's a long, drawn out debate that plagues audio builders all over. You can't ground thousands of watts / hundreds of amps to a unibody, so the battery up in the front is the next best place.

However, I am definitely considering adding an additional, shorter ground to the dist block. Not a huge deal to do

Sponsored