Possibly why there's no Hybrid AWD (for now)

[mav_can]

I know there have been a few threads offering different technical reasons that the Maverick Hybrid is not offered with AWD while the Escape Hybrid is. Some of those reasons include the fact that the eCVT and electric motor are a little bit different on the Maverick and they may not have had time to re-engineer the linkage between those components and the transfer case. But I've been doing a lot of in-depth research about hybrids, especially the Prius as it seems to me to be by far the most matured, advanced, and proven design (Ford is using the same eCVT design in the Maverick), and many Toyota models including the Prius are offered with Hybrid AWD.

Here's the thing... Unlike the Escape AWD Hybrid, the Rav4 never had a transfer case in the first place!

The way a Toyota Hybrid AWD system works, is it includes a 3rd MG unit called MGR (motor generator rear). There's no driveshaft or propshaft linking the front and the rear, rather there are only 3 wires (3 phase AC) running between the power control unit/battery and MGR. This allows for super precise control of the rear wheels more akin to Subaru's symmetrical AWD rather than the traditional mechanical linkage we're used to with trucks.

It seems to me if Ford is really serious about going all in on Hybrids and Electric Vehicles that they'll be ditching the transfer case and going with this approach. For reference, the Mach E and nearly all pure/plug-in EVs use a rear motor to achieve AWD. I think it also future-proofs the vehicle more for when a plug in model gets introduced and Ford can't sacrifice precious battery space to include a driveshaft and transfer case.

What do you all think? Would you be happy with an electronic AWD instead of mechanical?

Resource (highly highly recommend the first guy's series):

https://www.motortrend.com/features/toyota-all-wheel-drive-explained/

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[Easy_rider_77]

I believe that this is how Toyota's AWD system works in their Hybrid SUVs (Highlander, RAV4) and the Sienna as well. There is no mechanical linkage, just a separate electric motor that powers the rear wheels.

 

[fbov]

The way a Toyota Hybrid AWD system works, is it includes a 3rd MG unit called MGR
...
if Ford is really serious... they'll be ditching the transfer case and going with this approach.

When I purchased the Escape, the Lincoln version, Corsair, was planned to have a 3-motor AWD system. Today, it's all about the Corsair plug-in hybrid, and I can only find the same "intelligent AWD" as Escape on the option/spec sheet.

 

[spacemancraig]

I would be *more* happy with electric AWD. Less wear parts, less to fail, less space required. More parts reuse, more efficient, tweakable OTA.

Whats not to love?

 

[atomguy245]

So many buyers are hell bent on getting AWD, but in most of the country you really don't need it, even where it snows. I live in CT, and I would maybe really need AWD 5 times a year. But in reality, most people just stay home until the next day when the roads are plowed. Yes more northern states would make AWD necessary, but really most buyers don't need it. The Maverick has 8.3" ground clearance on the hybrid, with traction control. That should suffice. Get some snow tires.

 

[hcforde]

So many buyers are hell bent on getting AWD, but in most of the country you really don't need it, even where it snows. I live in CT, and I would maybe really need AWD 5 times a year. But in reality, most people just stay home until the next day when the roads are plowed. Yes more northern states would make AWD necessary, but really most buyers don't need it. The Maverick has 8.3" ground clearance on the hybrid, with traction control. That should suffice. Get some snow tires.

I think too many people are going to abuse the tow limits on this vehicle and that is the reason they want a cheap AWD.

 

[atomguy245]

I think too many people are going to abuse the tow limits on this vehicle and that is the reason they want a cheap AWD.

At $25,500 the XL AWD with 4k is a pretty useful tow vehicle, and dirt cheap. I would hope someone who needs to tow would go that route instead of trying to tow with the hybrid. You can even get the 4k on the front wheel drive 2.0T for $23k. Crazy

 

[Wire4money]

At $25,500 the XL AWD with 4k is a pretty useful tow vehicle, and dirt cheap. I would hope someone who needs to tow would go that route instead of trying to tow with the hybrid. You can even get the 4k on the front wheel drive 2.0T for $23k. Crazy

4K tow is now awd only

 

[Old Ranchero]

So many buyers are hell bent on getting AWD, but in most of the country you really don't need it, even where it snows. I live in CT, and I would maybe really need AWD 5 times a year. But in reality, most people just stay home until the next day when the roads are plowed. Yes more northern states would make AWD necessary, but really most buyers don't need it. The Maverick has 8.3" ground clearance on the hybrid, with traction control. That should suffice. Get some snow tires.

ever hear of Torque Steer? It's a nasty inherent characteristic on transverse mounted FWD vehicles. 1 of the surest known cures is AWD. With a 250HP Turbo mounted transversely I wouldn't buy the Maverick w/o AWD. It is not only for snow either: here in CO we have many dirt/gravel roads, there are mud slides in the passes, washed out roads in Monsoon season, and snow and ice can pop up anytime in Winter conditions for any commute to a neighboring county even if it's clear within 10 mile radius of my house- and AWD is just more sure footed for all conditions. The beauty is it isn't activated unless slip is detected.

 

[mav_can]

ever hear of Torque Steer? It's a nasty inherent characteristic on transverse mounted FWD vehicles. 1 of the surest known cures is AWD. With a 250HP Turbo mounted transversely I wouldn't buy the Maverick w/o AWD. It is not only for snow either: here in CO we have many dirt/gravel roads, there are mud slides in the passes, washed out roads in Monsoon season, and snow and ice can pop up anytime in Winter conditions for any commute to a neighboring county even if it's clear within 10 mile radius of my house- and AWD is just more sure footed for all conditions. The beauty is it isn't activated unless slip is detected.

I don’t think AWD solves torque steer. AWD only engages when slip is detected, and torque steer (EXCEPT on those surfaces you mentioned, in which case I would say don’t floor it on gravel or mud and you won’t have torque steer) isn’t usually enough to overcome grip.

It’ll still turn the wheel to one side either way, and so you’ll feel the torque steer.

 

[fbov]

So many buyers are hell bent on getting AWD, but in most of the country you really don't need it, even where it snows. ... Get some snow tires.

We get 8' of snow/year. Last winter was my first without snow tires since the '80's. To my IMMENSE surprise, AWD and OEM tires (with surprisingly good snow traction) made for a very serviceable combination. But the OEM Bridgestones will be dead at 33K, to be replaced with an all-season 3PMSF tire (Michelin CrossClimate2). That's gonna be fun!

ever hear of Torque Steer? ... we have many dirt/gravel roads, there are mud slides in the passes, washed out roads in Monsoon season, and snow and ice can pop up anytime in Winter ...

Torque steer was common in the 1980's, as Detroit figured out how to make FWD cars. It hasn't been an issue since the 1990's. Highly likely that only retired folks remember true torque steer.

The solution was equal length half shafts. Early designs had an offset differential, requiring unequal length half shafts, and producing true torque steer.

I don’t think AWD solves torque steer. ... It’ll still turn the wheel ... and ... feel the torque steer.

You and @Old Ranchero are talking about wheel spin. Most FWD drivetrains have open differentials, so they will spin an unloaded tire. The car will tend to veer as a result.

We know it's not "torque steer" because RWD does the same thing. Once a wheel starts spinning, FWD and RWD both veer. The biggest difference? The RWD version - oversteer - is fun.

 

[JKinPA]

Atomguy
Not sure that agree with this. I see you are from New England so you would know. I am from PA and we don’t get nearly get as much snow, however we get a lot of slushy, freezing rain, sleet, snow mix. Totally different, besides from time to time I do some mild off-roading, and if you are going on the beach you will need AWD. NOT saying you are wrong but I am not saying you are completely right. I do not have the luxury of staying at home unless there is a state of emergency declared. I want AWD and I will have it.

 

[Old Ranchero]

We get 8' of snow/year. Last winter was my first without snow tires since the '80's. To my IMMENSE surprise, AWD and OEM tires (with surprisingly good snow traction) made for a very serviceable combination. But the OEM Bridgestones will be dead at 33K, to be replaced with an all-season 3PMSF tire (Michelin CrossClimate2). That's gonna be fun!

Torque steer was common in the 1980's, as Detroit figured out how to make FWD cars. It hasn't been an issue since the 1990's. Highly likely that only retired folks remember true torque steer.

The solution was equal length half shafts. Early designs had an offset differential, requiring unequal length half shafts, and producing true torque steer.


You and @Old Ranchero are talking about wheel spin. Most FWD drivetrains have open differentials, so they will spin an unloaded tire. The car will tend to veer as a result.

We know it's not "torque steer" because RWD does the same thing. Once a wheel starts spinning, FWD and RWD both veer. The biggest difference? The RWD version - oversteer - is fun.

Not exactly. Yes, slip is involved, but Anytime you have a transverse mounted motor in a FWD vehicle - you have torque steer. No way it can be totally eliminated due to configuration. Engineers have developed some tricks and mitigations to lessen the effect so most people don't notice it, but not SOLVED it with equal length half shafts (though that is 1 of the most effective mitigations). Do we know for a fact Maverick has equal length shafts? Not a trick question, I don't know myself. Here's a wiki on the topic and a relevant paragraph:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_steer

"Torque steer is the unintended influence of engine torque on the steering, especially in front-wheel-drive vehicles. For example, during heavy acceleration, the steering may pull to one side, which may be disturbing to the driver. The effect is manifested either as a tugging sensation in the steering wheel, or a veering of the vehicle from the intended path. Torque steer is directly related to differences in the forces in the contact patches of the left and right drive wheels. The effect becomes more evident when high torques are applied to the drive wheels either because of a high overall reduction ratio between the engine and wheels,[1] high engine torque, or some combination of the two."

Here's a good explainer article that's more technical and current:

https://www.aa1car.com/library/torque_steer.htm

Some highlights- and a special note on "safe" HP which may be relevant for Maverick hybrid...

"Torque steer is the annoying tendency of a front-wheel drive car to pull to one side during hard acceleration. The problem they say, is caused by an "imbalance" in the distribution of power to the front wheels. So what does that mean, and what can you do about it?

It means torque steer is an inherent though undesirable characteristic of front-wheel drive. Its causes are complex but it can be cured.

An obvious cure for the traction problem would be to use a limited slip differential in the transaxle. Yet except for a few high end FWD cars, limited slip differentials are not available as a factory option on most FWD cars. The reason why limited slip differentials have not been offered to date is because engineers have intentionally held horsepower ratings within "safe" limits. Safe, in this case, meaning both what the transaxle and typical driver are capable of handling. The current limit is somewhere around 175 to 200 horsepower.

A locked differential can't be used with FWD because of the adverse effects it would have on steering control. But a "soft" limited slip such as the silicone clutch pack Ford uses in the European Escort or a worm gear arrangement (like a Torsen differential in a Neon SRT) are the best choice for transaxle applications."

So my takeaways from this are the only proven way to eliminate FWD torque steer completely is longitudinal engine position and AWD like Subaru as mentioned in 1 article. Admittedly I don't know exactly how Subaru's AWD system works (If it's normally FWD biased?) and the 2nd best "cure" is AWD that can send some of the power to rear end if slip detected in front wheels.

The fact Maverick Eco 2.0 is rated at 250hp and has a turbo made me select AWD to mitigate any torque steer as much as possible and help with towing by adding 4k package and more confidence in all weather conditions. Others may come to a different conclusion and choice.

 

[Randy H.]

So many buyers are hell bent on getting AWD, but in most of the country you really don't need it, even where it snows. I live in CT, and I would maybe really need AWD 5 times a year. But in reality, most people just stay home until the next day when the roads are plowed. Yes more northern states would make AWD necessary, but really most buyers don't need it. The Maverick has 8.3" ground clearance on the hybrid, with traction control. That should suffice. Get some snow tires.

I fully agree... I lived in Northern Nevada for 20 years and never needed 4WD or AWD even though many claimed I did; Moved to CT 2 years ago and drive route 6 or I84 to and from work. There is a reason there are so many FWD vehicles on the roads in CT, NV, etc...

 

[atomguy245]

I fully agree... I lived in Northern Nevada for 20 years and never needed 4WD or AWD even though many claimed I did; Moved to CT 2 years ago and drive route 6 or I84 to and from work. There is a reason there are so many FWD vehicles on the roads in CT, NV, etc...

Pretty much the only thing CT government does well is plow the roads lol

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