HONOLULU FORD/LITHIA MOTORS - BUYERS BEWARE!!!

[Larockman]

The Attorney General operates in a different space than contract law. They operate under the consumer fraud act, unfair/deceptive business practices etc. I think people don't understand the power of the attorney general. Any deceptive business practice can get the business in trouble. Something like raising the price or adding fees like this would definitely fall under the AG's power. One complaint could be enough. Multiple complaints would definitely start to get their attention. Don't waste your time with BBB.

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[James D]

LOL.

You are completely, hilariously misinformed on so many levels.

1- Explain that you had a salesman agree to MSRP plus tax, dmv, and doc only.
NOPE. Salesmen never agree to any price, ever. That's management's job.

2- If they give you some line about everybody paying a markup, say you’ll be getting in contact with your attorney today.
They will laugh at you. No attorney would take this "Case" without first having you pay a nice retainer, AND explaining to you that you don't have a leg to stand on.

3- The truck has your name on it and they cannot sell it to anyone else.
NOPE. The truck belongs to the dealer. They can do whatever they want with it.

4- They also don’t want to deal with a court date.
LOL, ok. There will be no court date. Even if there was, they have an attorney on retainer, it's no skin off their ass if you want to waste your time and money in small claims court.

Actually you are the hilariously misinformed one. If the Order Form signed by us with our DL# attached means nothing, then the dealers would not call when our builds arrive and sell the trucks to some sucker on the lot +15k.

 

[DryHeat]

Actually you are the hilariously misinformed one. If the Order Form signed by us with our DL# attached means nothing, then the dealers would not call when our builds arrive and sell the trucks to some sucker on the lot +15k.

The order form does mean something, but it doesn't mean that the dealer has to sell you the truck at the price you expect.

As I understand it, it means that the dealer is supposed to (and usually will) offer the truck to you. Ford has some sort of system (but not a very effective one, apparently) for figuring out if the dealers are selling the trucks to the person who actually ordered them.

BUT... the dealer may add ADM and other expensive stuff that you don't want, and you may decide not to accept that "new, improved" deal. The dealer will then claim that you refused the truck. At that point the dealer can sell it to anyone they want.

There are variations on this theme, and I've read that some dealers are skipping the first step and ignoring the person who ordered the truck altogether. But I don't think that's the norm.

 

[James D]

The order form does mean something, but it doesn't mean that the dealer has to sell you the truck at the price you expect.

As I understand it, it means that the dealer is supposed to (and usually will) offer the truck to you. Ford has some sort of system (but not a very effective one, apparently) for figuring out if the dealers are selling the trucks to the person who actually ordered them.

BUT... the dealer may add ADM and other expensive stuff that you don't want, and you may decide not to accept that "new, improved" deal. The dealer will then claim that you refused the truck. At that point the dealer can sell it to anyone they want.

There are variations on this theme, and I've read that some dealers are skipping the first step and ignoring the person who ordered the truck altogether. But I don't think that's the norm.

A dealer telling a judge that the price on the Order Form means nothing would not set a good precedent, he would probably get reprimanded pretty hard and accused of a fraudulent business practice.

The price on one page POs that businesses use to order everything from office supplies to vehicles would then mean nothing. The driver delivering your Amazon order can tell you he will not leave your package because, sorry, demand went up yesterday and he has to collect $500 more.

As ridiculous as these examples sound, it is really no different than Ford or a dealer not honoring a price they offered which you accepted with your signature on the Order Form.

 

[DryHeat]

A dealer telling a judge that the price on the Order Form means nothing would not set a good precedent, he would probably get reprimanded pretty hard and accused of a fraudulent business practice.

The price on one page POs that businesses use to order everything from office supplies to vehicles would then mean nothing.

The driver delivering your Amazon order can tell you he will not leave your package because, sorry, demand went up yesterday and he has to collect $500 more.

As ridiculous as these examples sound, it is really no different than Ford or a dealer not honoring a price they offered which you accepted with your signature on the Order Form.

Your examples sound ridiculous because they are wrong. To see why you have to focus on who is doing the offering and when the acceptance takes place.

PO: A buyer's purchase order is an offer to purchase goods. It only becomes a contract when it is accepted by the seller, which can be done by the seller signing the PO (or some other writing) or by the seller providing the goods. See: legalzoom.com

(Some businesses have an existing product supply agreement where the seller agrees to accept any purchase order from that buyer that is based on its current material and price catalog. But even then the agreement allows the seller to refuse the PO for various reasons, like not having stock.)

Amazon: When I "buy" something on Amazon, I am actually making an offer to buy the product. Amazon accepts the offer when they dispatch the product and send a confirmation email. That occurs before the driver ever gets the product. See: Amazon Conditions

(This lack of a binding contract is why you can cancel your order for no penalty before shipping and why Amazon can cancel your order if they don't have the product available.)

The Judge: First, let me know when you hear of a judge enforcing an order form (signed only by the vehicle buyer) as a contract. Plenty of folks are complaining about similar situations so -- if you're right -- we should hear about it pretty soon. (But I won't hold my breath.)

Second, I think you are closer to the mark with your comments on "fraudulent business practices." (These are not claims brought on a contract. In most states fraud is a tort and unfair business practice claims are brought under some form of statutory consumer protection law.)

If I were trying to fashion a suit against car dealers, I wouldn't claim that the order form is a contract. I would claim that the tricks the dealer uses to make the purchaser believe that he has a contract (when he doesn't) are deceptive practices. I hope someone will win a suit like that and tamp down this devious practice.

 

[Larockman]

Your examples sound ridiculous because they are wrong. To see why you have to focus on who is doing the offering and when the acceptance takes place.

PO: A buyer's purchase order is an offer to purchase goods. It only becomes a contract when it is accepted by the seller, which can be done by the seller signing the PO (or some other writing) or by the seller providing the goods. See: legalzoom.com

(Some businesses have an existing product supply agreement where the seller agrees to accept any purchase order from that buyer that is based on its current material and price catalog. But even then the agreement allows the seller to refuse the PO for various reasons, like not having stock.)

Amazon: When I "buy" something on Amazon, I am actually making an offer to buy the product. Amazon accepts the offer when they dispatch the product and send a confirmation email. That occurs before the driver ever gets the product. See: Amazon Conditions

(This lack of a binding contract is why you can cancel your order for no penalty before shipping and why Amazon can cancel your order if they don't have the product available.)

The Judge: First, let me know when you hear of a judge enforcing an order form (signed only by the vehicle buyer) as a contract. Plenty of folks are complaining about similar situations so -- if you're right -- we should hear about it pretty soon. (But I won't hold my breath.)

Second, I think you are closer to the mark with your comments on "fraudulent business practices." (These are not claims brought on a contract. In most states fraud is a tort and unfair business practice claims are brought under some form of statutory consumer protection law.)

If I were trying to fashion a suit against car dealers, I wouldn't claim that the order form is a contract. I would claim that the tricks the dealer uses to make the purchaser believe that he has a contract (when he doesn't) are deceptive practices. I hope someone will win a suit like that and tamp down this devious practice.

Contracts don't have to be very official. There is some gray area here with this dealer but these guys will have a hard time claiming they didn't offer to sell these vehicles at a particular price especially if they printed out a sheet with the fees on it and had the customer sign it.
https://www.upcounsel.com/is-an-email-legally-binding

 

[DryHeat]

Contracts don't have to be very official. There is some gray area here with this dealer but these guys will have a hard time claiming they didn't offer to sell these vehicles at a particular price especially if they printed out a sheet with the fees on it and had the customer sign it.
https://www.upcounsel.com/is-an-email-legally-binding

If that were the case we would expect to see some successful lawsuits, followed by dealers changing their practices. But here's what we actually see:

• Ford's order system relies on every person who orders a Maverick signing a DORA and giving the dealer a copy of their DL.
• We know that a number of those folks have been confronted with a price bump on delivery, and many have paid or walked away.
• But we haven't heard of a single person even bringing a contract suit based on a DORA signed only by the buyer... much less winning the case.

Why is that?

(As for the link you posted... it's about people forming a contract by exchanging "a series of emails, not just one." The point of the cited case was that a person's email can be considered "signed" by that person -- and thus a signed writing -- even though "it cannot be physically signed.")

 

[TheSEARCH]

If that were the case we would expect to see some successful lawsuits, followed by dealers changing their practices. But here's what we actually see:

• Ford's order system relies on every person who orders a Maverick signing a DORA and giving the dealer a copy of their DL.
• We know that a number of those folks have been confronted with a price bump on delivery, and many have paid or walked away.
• But we haven't heard of a single person even bringing a contract suit based on a DORA signed only by the buyer... much less winning the case.

Why is that?

(As for the link you posted... it's about people forming a contract by exchanging "a series of emails, not just one." The point of the cited case was that a person's email can be considered "signed" by that person -- and thus a signed writing -- even though "it cannot be physically signed.")

I don't claim to know who is right. BUT as far as no one filing a law suit answer is pretty simple. MONEY. its not worth it. Lawyers are pricey. My bet if a dealer tried this with a lawyer they would go oh crap and drop there price jump. So that is my bet on why we see no lawsuits. Not saying they would win as I have no clue. All I can say is all this talk in the end hurts Ford.

 

[2cafn8d]

I don't claim to know who is right. BUT as far as no one filing a law suit answer is pretty simple. MONEY. its not worth it. Lawyers are pricey. My bet if a dealer tried this with a lawyer they would go oh crap and drop there price jump. So that is my bet on why we see no lawsuits. Not saying they would win as I have no clue. All I can say is all this talk in the end hurts Ford.

I'm going to agree with this 100%. I would end up walking away because I couldn't afford to fight with a lawsuit. It shouldn't be happening. Period. I stress out at moments, then I remember that the people that I've referred to my dealership have had excellent experiences and I feel a bit better.

 

[DryHeat]

I don't claim to know who is right. BUT as far as no one filing a law suit answer is pretty simple. MONEY. its not worth it. Lawyers are pricey.

You're right about lawyers costing money. But there are lawyers who would take these cases if a DORA were an enforceable contract. I believe that for three reasons:

• If a buyer-signed DORA were an enforceable contract, these would be very simple cases.
• In many states, in a successful contract suit, the loser pays the winner's attorney fees.
• There are lawyers who are willing to take cases pro bono when they are offended.

I have talked to a number of lawyers about this issue. All so far have agreed that there is no winnable contract case here. But a few have gone on to say they wish there were a case because they would like to take it on just to stick it to the dealer.

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