Ford doing something about greedy dealers and flippers?

[MattIngram]

You seem to be mixing the ideas of false advertising and selling over MSRP.

It may be a deceptive trade practice for a dealer to advertise a car at a price lower than they will actually sell it for. Most dealers are well aware of this and tailor their advertising to meet the legal requirements. (They often put in footnotes about other costs or limit the price to a specific stock number, for example.)

Some states require a dealer to post additional costs on a supplementary (not replacement) window sticker if they are charging above MSRP. Dealers in those states know that and do that.

But no law requires dealers to sell at MSRP. Here's some info about MSRP from the Federal Trade Commission:

So... Are you claiming that selling over MSRP is a deceptive trade practice? Or just that a dealer may commit a deceptive trade practice if they advertise a car for a lower price than they will actually sell it for?

(Note: I've read your later posts. I chose to respond to this one because it is the clearest statement of your theory.)

No not mixing ideas at all, they are one in the same. Ford touted the under $20k price in their marketing materials, configurator on their website, social media, on the buyer order preview. Just look at all of the stories and reviews out about the Maverick’s MSRP.

Market adjustments are brand new and different than any other add on addendum stickers. It’s just pure markup above sticker price. You want to pay the advertised price, pound sand, the dealership wants $5k. Adding them to an order without disclosing them until the vehicle arrives, even worse. No law requires Dealerships to sell at MSRP but they don’t get to advertise at a lower price and then switch to higher price either.

The letter mentioned in this thread and referenced in my post tears down Ford’s argument that they don’t know that vehicles are being sold for substantially more than the advertised price. Obviously, I’m not an attorney but that’s a legal risk for both Ford and the dealership. All you need is a set of facts, a statutory situation not tested in a court before and a competent officer of the court to bring a case.

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[damnclose]

Seems like a step in the right direction.

From the F150 Lightning forum. Link to original post below.

https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/threads/-ford-warns-dealers-against-additional-deposit-reservation-requirements-for-lightning-orders-supports-no-resale-provisions-in-purchase-contracts.7961/

I think this is a good idea. Stop the over pricing. If you don't want it don't buy it.

 

[DryHeat]

No not mixing ideas at all, they are one in the same. Ford touted the under $20k price in their marketing materials, configurator on their website, social media, on the buyer order preview. Just look at all of the stories and reviews out about the Maverick’s MSRP.

Market adjustments are brand new and different than any other add on addendum stickers. It’s just pure markup above sticker price. You want to pay the advertised price, pound sand, the dealership wants $5k. Adding them to an order without disclosing them until the vehicle arrives, even worse.

No law requires Dealerships to sell at MSRP but they don’t get to advertise at a lower price and then switch to higher price either. The letter mentioned in this thread and referenced in my post tears down Ford’s argument that they don’t know that vehicles are being sold for substantially more than the advertised price.

It's true that dealers can't advertise a car for a price less than they will actually sell it for. But Ford touting its MSRP is not the same as a dealer advertising a car for sale at MSRP. You don't buy the car from Ford, you buy it from the dealer. It's the dealer who advertises the sale price, not Ford.

If Ford's (or any manufacturer's) announcement of MSRP were binding on dealers, why would you say dealers don't have to sell at MSRP? All manufacturers tout their MSRPs, so wouldn't all dealers be limited to MSRP?

Think about it this way... When Ford says the MSRP is $xx,xxx, is that false? No... that really is the MSRP. And everyone knows that (as you said) dealers don't have to sell at MSRP.

To sum up, your complaint here is really about false advertising. But you appear to think that touting MSRP is the same as a dealer advertising a car for a certain price. It's not. (Dealers usually know how to legally advertise, either by adding disclaimers or footnotes or limiting the price to a specific stock number.)

[BTW, I do think that, depending on the facts, the dealer (not Ford) leading a customer to believe that they will get their ordered vehicle at one price, then adding additional markup to that price at delivery, may be a deceptive trade practice. I would love it if someone would file a lawsuit about that.]

 

[MattIngram]

It's true that dealers can't advertise a car for a price less than they will actually sell it for. But Ford touting its MSRP is not the same as a dealer advertising a car for sale at MSRP. You don't buy the car from Ford, you buy it from the dealer. It's the dealer who advertises the sale price, not Ford.

If Ford's (or any manufacturer's) announcement of MSRP were binding on dealers, why would you say dealers don't have to sell at MSRP? All manufacturers tout their MSRPs, so wouldn't all dealers be limited to MSRP?

Think about it this way... When Ford says the MSRP is $xx,xxx, is that false? No... that really is the MSRP. And everyone knows that (as you said) dealers don't have to sell at MSRP.

To sum up, your complaint here is really about false advertising. But you appear to think that touting MSRP is the same as a dealer advertising a car for a certain price. It's not. (Dealers usually know how to legally advertise, either by adding disclaimers or footnotes or limiting the price to a specific stock number.)

[BTW, I do think that, depending on the facts, the dealer (not Ford) leading a customer to believe that they will get their ordered vehicle at one price, then adding additional markup to that price at delivery, may be a deceptive trade practice. I would love it if someone would file a lawsuit about that.]

Obviously I don’t agree with all of that. After a few more cases and attorney generals get involved, we will see how that plays out. Fun fact on the F150 forum Ford asked them to remove the letter. Where’s there smoke, there’s fire. Although I’m not sure this is a winnable scenario for Ford. We will see if they can re-program the computer like Kirk did on the Kobayashi Maru.

 

[DryHeat]

Obviously I don’t agree with all of that. After a few more cases and attorney generals get involved, we will see how that plays out.

Sounds like a plan.

BTW, you say "a few more cases." Have there actually been cases (or attorneys general involved) specifically claiming that it's deceptive to sell a car for more than the manufacturer's announced MSRP?

I'd love to see some links about that. I'm always willing to learn.

 

[Old Ranchero]

Can a dealer advertise/sell for LESS than MSRP and not get in trouble for false advertising? I wouldn't want any of the good guys on here that sell for less to get into trouble

 

[MattIngram]

Sounds like a plan.

BTW, you say "a few more cases." Have there actually been cases (or attorneys general involved) specifically claiming that it's deceptive to sell a car for more than the manufacturer's announced MSRP?

I'd love to see some links about that. I'm always willing to learn.

Some of it is still new and emerging but Ford shot themselves in the foot with that email. They use indemnification to insulate the manufacturer from the dealership and now that wall just fell down but not an attorney.

It will take States Attorneys months to weed through the complaints, assign a lead state attorney, send out demands for more information. I already shared the Massachusetts advisory but here it is again.

https://www.mass.gov/news/ag-healey...ts-and-obligations-on-advertising-and-pricing

Here’s one for a manufacturers (Stellantis) increase in destination fees, just like the Maverick.

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit...on-fees-dealership-cars-class-action-lawsuit/

Another one for GM:

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/0...-action-lawsuit-over-destination-charges/amp/

Here’s a criminal overcharge by a dealership on taxes and fees:

https://www.wgal.com/amp/article/ca...-nearly-71-000-state-prosecutors-say/30659104

A little off topic and older but a good one on systematic abuse of appraising tradein values.

https://amp.wbur.org/news/2019/02/22/ccc-information-services-vehicle-appraisal-source-one

Obviously, the inflated destination fees, over and above MSRP is where lawyers think they have their best cases but again it’s on the MSRP label. Market adjustments are new, making headlines and it’s only a matter of time before they begin to poke holes in the paper wall separating manufacturers and dealerships.

 

[DryHeat]

Can a dealer advertise/sell for LESS than MSRP and not get in trouble for false advertising? I wouldn't want any of the good guys on here that sell for less to get into trouble

Absolutely not!

If any of you purchased below MSRP, just send the difference to me and I'll make sure it gets to the right place.

I assure you there will be no repercussions.

 

[TacoHolder]

Can a dealer advertise/sell for LESS than MSRP and not get in trouble for false advertising? I wouldn't want any of the good guys on here that sell for less to get into trouble

Slippery situation with Granger's offer of $3000 below MSRP with a $100 nonrefundable deposit. It's the deposit that could land them in hot water with Ford corporate.
They are absolutely betting on a bunch of people placing an order and not following through. The winners are Granger and anyone actually taking delivery.

 

[DryHeat]

Some of it is still new and emerging but Ford shot themselves in the foot with that email. They use indemnification to insulate the manufacturer from the dealership and now that wall just fell down but not an attorney.

It will take States Attorneys months to weed through the complaints, assign a lead state attorney, send out demands for more information. I already shared the Massachusetts advisory but here it is again.

https://www.mass.gov/news/ag-healey...ts-and-obligations-on-advertising-and-pricing

Here’s one for a manufacturers (Stellantis) increase in destination fees, just like the Maverick.

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit...on-fees-dealership-cars-class-action-lawsuit/

Another one for GM:

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/0...-action-lawsuit-over-destination-charges/amp/

Here’s a criminal overcharge by a dealership on taxes and fees:

https://www.wgal.com/amp/article/ca...-nearly-71-000-state-prosecutors-say/30659104

A little off topic and older but a good one on systematic abuse of appraising tradein values.

https://amp.wbur.org/news/2019/02/22/ccc-information-services-vehicle-appraisal-source-one

None of those reports are about dealers being in hot water for charging more than manufacturer's MSRP.

But you already know that, don't you?

Maybe I should bring a "bait and switch" complaint...

 

[MattIngram]

None of those reports say anything at all about dealers being in hot water for charging more than manufacturer's MSRP.

But you already know that, don't you?

Maybe I should bring a "bait and switch" complaint...

Actually destination fees are on the MSRP label, have you not seen one? And the Massachusetts AG advisory speaks to market adjustments but you didn’t read it did you? Obviously you don’t want to learn but try to prove a tired and belabored point that there’s nothing you can do. Obviously, you’re wrong and those sources are just from the web and not a lexis nexis case search.

 

[DryHeat]

Actually destination fees are on the MSRP label, have you not seen one? And the Massachusetts AG advisory speaks to market adjustments but you didn’t read it did you? Obviously you don’t want to learn but try to prove a tired and belabored point that there’s nothing you can do. Obviously, you’re wrong and those sources are just from the web and not a lexis nexis case search.

Actually, it's a Monroney sticker. MSRP is just one thing required to be on that sticker. Destination charge is another thing and It's required to be listed separately from MSRP. They are not the same thing. Look it up.

As for the Massachusetts report, it's about dealers advertising a price but not honoring that price. Not a word about manufacturer's MSRP. Here's the money quote:

"Consumers allege that dealerships advertise certain prices online, only to deny consumers those prices at the dealership, and in some cases even after the dealer had confirmed the advertised price in an email."

 

[MattIngram]

Actually, it's a Monroney sticker. MSRP is just one thing required to be on that sticker. Destination charge is another thing and It's required to be listed separately from MSRP. They are not the same thing. Look it up.

As for the Massachusetts report, it's about dealers advertising a price but not honoring that price. Not a word about manufacturer's MSRP. Here's the money quote:

"Consumers allege that dealerships advertise certain prices online, only to deny consumers those prices at the dealership, and in some cases even after the dealer had confirmed the advertised price in an email."

That kind of thinking is what got Stellantis and GM in trouble for inflating the overall price on a vehicle by burying profit in the destination fees. That sort of confirms my original argument if something as established like a destination fee is in dispute, then yeah market adjustments are next. It takes time and research to bring a lawsuit, it doesn’t just happen overnight. And the Massachusetts AG advisory has the money shot, bold and underlined below:

“This rapid increase in pricing, coupled with the greater demand for cars in the Commonwealth, creates the potential for widespread violations of the Commonwealth’s automobile advertising and pricing regulations as well as dealership breaches of consumer automobile lease contracts. Dealerships are refusing to sell vehicles at their advertised prices, demanding additional fees and costs for “market adjustments” and refusing to honor the buyout terms of lease agreements with consumers so that leased vehicles can be turned over and sold at a higher price.”

Face it, you took a cheap shot and it just shows how ignorant you really are and that advertised prices (MSRP) and realized prices (Destination charges, Market Adjustments, Mandatory add on packages, etc.) occur in various forms.

 

[DryHeat]

That kind of thinking is what got Stellantis and GM in trouble for inflating the overall price on a vehicle by burying profit in the destination fees. That sort of confirms my original argument if something as established like a destination fee is in dispute, then yeah market adjustment are next. It takes time and research to bring a lawsuit. It doesn’t just happen overnight. And the advisory has the money shot, bold and underlined.

This rapid increase in pricing, coupled with the greater demand for cars in the Commonwealth, creates the potential for widespread violations of the Commonwealth’s automobile advertising and pricing regulations as well as dealership breaches of consumer automobile lease contracts. Dealerships are refusing to sell vehicles at their advertised prices, demanding additional fees and costs for “market adjustments” and refusing to honor the buyout terms of lease agreements with consumers so that leased vehicles can be turned over and sold at a higher price.

Face it, you took a cheap shot and it just shows how ignorant you really are and that advertised prices (MSRP) and realized prices (Destination charges, Market Adjustments, Mandatory add on packages, etc.) occur in various forms

"It takes time and research to bring a lawsuit. It doesn’t just happen overnight."

I take it this is your long form method of admitting that there aren't any cases where dealers are getting in trouble simply for selling above MSRP.

What dealers are getting in trouble for is what I mentioned earlier -- advertising a price (MSRP or anything else) and not honoring it.

If this AG, or any other, goes after dealers for simply selling above MSRP (remember selling above MSRP?... thats what you said was illegal) be sure to get back to me.

Until then, adios...

 

[MattIngram]

"It takes time and research to bring a lawsuit. It doesn’t just happen overnight."

I take it this is your long form method of admitting that there aren't any cases where dealers are getting in trouble simply for selling above MSRP.

What dealers are getting in trouble for is what I mentioned earlier -- advertising a price (MSRP or anything else) and not honoring it.

If this AG, or any other, goes after dealers for simply selling above MSRP (remember selling above MSRP?... thats what you said was illegal) be sure to get back to me.

Until then, adios...

Actually it’s not because I already provided three instances where advertised prices were in dispute, two of which involved manufacturers (MSRP vs Destination), you’ve just ignored them. Obviously, you’re trying to argue a technicality because you already know that MSRP is the advertised price and market adjustments, inflated fees, and the sausage making at the dealership is something totally different. In fact you’ve said as much in prior posts. Also, the AG advisory just came out last year, and if you even read the destination complaints, you’d understand that it took a while for them to pick the lead plaintifs in those cases to try and bring the class action. Just look at the difference in model years.

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