What happens when tuners realize the hybrid HP/TQ numbers?

[thev8man]

The main thing that holds back the peak power in the hybrid is the relatively small battery; you can only pull so much current out of it safely, based on the C-rate specification of the cells. Adding batteries and capacity to most EVs, PHEVs, and hybrids is relatively easy, you simply tie into the high voltage bus with a matching voltage battery and add a contactor, you can see the examples of this on forums and youtube across the internet, look for range extending trailers, etc - the cars don't actually care where the electrons are coming from or going to on the high voltage bus.

So, that being said, what happens when an enterprising tuner actually realizes that the stock 2025 hybrid is a 393 HP, 376 lb-ft power train bolted to a 405 lb-ft rated transmission?

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[heady]

I'm not the one being attacked here, but I will butt in and ask: Why do people just need to disagree so loudly? Someone wants to discuss something and it turns into this immature "prove it" over and over again. If you don't agree then leave it at that, constantly arguing screams of some need for validation.
If discussion won't do and proof is needed so badly then let the guy who disagrees prove it doesn't work. Why make someone else do the experiment for you?

I think there is money left on the table as far as making a hybrid quicker, I have my doubts on how simple that is since I haven't looked into it since the first gen Prius.

Thanks for the voice of reason, but it's par for the course. This is really just a thread I started for creative inspiration and fun, not really to spoon feed a peanut gallery, but I don't mind answering any questions or providing my opinions on the matter to anyone, no matter their bent or persuasion. Part of it might come down to reading comprehension, and perhaps an inability to grasp examples in extremis used for illustrative purposes or as a sidebar, unable to contextualize those examples in situ. This is not something we can really expect to correct in most adults, and you can't really consider something an attack if your attacker is functionally unarmed, in my opinion.

 

[Escapologist]

Yeah really, I mean you can pull all the stops out on a natural aspirated engine and get 175hp a litre, but it idles at 2000 rpm is a pig to drive on street, and overheats for any use case other than a quick blast down a drag strip. So sensible roadable tunes are gonna be far less than that.

 

[colinl]

If discussion won't do and proof is needed so badly then let the guy who disagrees prove it doesn't work.

That is insane. I assure you that Mavericks are amphibious, and with 4k towing you can pull 2 skiers.

So, now you go to the nearest lake and prove it doesn't work, I'll wait here.

There are several reasons I argued multiple times here. One is that I debate for sport, but if you've been here a while, you have seen me support dissenting ideas when they have merit. No one knows everything and I enjoy learning. But this is such a farcical dream to think the first post - that a Maverick hybrid is really 400 horsepower and just needs tuning to reach that - he might as well have claimed it can fly.

No one should try the various methods mentioned here by the op unless they want to die (the 320v system is very capable of killing a person untrained in proper maintenance), or burn up their battery or electrical motor, or set their truck on fire. But if the op is sure it can be done safely, by all means let's get that 400 hp.

 

[Blinky]

If they can successfully reverse engineer modern ICE engine controls, they can sort ICE-Electric controls as well. Like most scenarios, only a very few will muck with their factory setup, as it's usually $$$ and somewhat to significantly compromises reliability and service life of stock parts, which don't typically have lots of reserve capability/capacity.

Tuners aren't reverse engineering anything, they're changing some values on table to allow the factory ECU to add more fuel or remove/edit rev limiters.

Doing what OP is dreaming would take a team of dedicated engineers several months to do and still wouldn't achieve the lofty power they're looking for. If it was so easy Ford would have already done it and charged more for the "e-sport" package, they already know exactly what is possible and reasonably feasible for the hybrid powertrain and yes, while they've probably been somewhat conservative in tuning to ensure longevity I HIGHLY doubt they left anything like OP's imaginary gains on the table.

 

[heady]

Tuners aren't reverse engineering anything, they're changing some values on table to allow the factory ECU to add more fuel or remove/edit rev limiters.

Doing what OP is dreaming would take a team of dedicated engineers several months to do and still wouldn't achieve the lofty power they're looking for. If it was so easy Ford would have already done it and charged more for the "e-sport" package, they already know exactly what is possible and reasonably feasible for the hybrid powertrain and yes, while they've probably been somewhat conservative in tuning to ensure longevity I HIGHLY doubt they left anything like OP's imaginary gains on the table.

When tuners are changing some values on a table, they first have to find those tables from a raw hex dump of the ECU flash unless someone else already did it for them in the tuning software they use, winols, etc. When I started tuning there was no software to help you even find those tables like winols does, you just used a general purpose hex editor to search for the same data patterns. Ecus back then were simpler, but the process of combing through hex files to identify a map, and then determine what each map table does, is usually called reverse engineering.

The torque limits, current limits, speed profiles and other variables in a hybrid TCM or any VFD or motor controller inverter are stored in the same type of format, this is how all embedded hardware works.

Ford didn't really leave anything on the table, the system is effectively performing at the highest power it can on the tiny stock battery. The transaxles used simply have far more powerful motors in them than the hybrid application can utilize in stock form, and the reasons for that are simple - you can't put a significantly smaller, cheaper motor in place of the PHEV specified motors, because the same holding and starting torque is essentially required on both the hybrid and PHEV application.

Adding batteries is not difficult on modern electric drivetrain platforms, and requires the usual hobbyist skills needed to build with any EV platform. Tuning a new platform does usually require several months development time, but of course doesn't need a team of dedicated engineers. The op didn't have any lofty goals, they just relayed the stock engine and motor specifications to the forum in the first post.

If Ford is encrypting the flash memory on new products, they have stepped up the game against their consumers and tuners. In some cases, users might be able to find an exploit or weakness and recover the encryption key, but as far as I know this hasn't been accomplished for the 2025s, and there is no guarantee that it is possible. I believe there are other Ford products like the 10r80 that are "untunable" in the traditional way for this reason as well, leaving tuners with only other work arounds to build those transmissions for higher torque, which makes the factory computers of much more limited use than they are traditionally.

 

[Ron Neal]

Thanks for the voice of reason, but it's par for the course. This is really just a thread I started for creative inspiration and fun, not really to spoon feed a peanut gallery, but I don't mind answering any questions or providing my opinions on the matter to anyone, no matter their bent or persuasion. Part of it might come down to reading comprehension, and perhaps an inability to grasp examples in extremis used for illustrative purposes or as a sidebar, unable to contextualize those examples in situ. This is not something we can really expect to correct in most adults, and you can't really consider something an attack if your attacker is functionally unarmed, in my opinion.

As member of the peanut gallery I don't like spoons in my face and if this is creative inspiration and fun why don't you show us how it's done so you can enlighten the functionally unarmed. A completed project is infinitely more interesting than the above diatribe or are you just a troll?

 

[heady]

As member of the peanut gallery I don't like spoons in my face and if this is creative inspiration and fun why don't you show us how it's done so you can enlighten the functionally unarmed. A completed project is infinitely more interesting than the above diatribe or are you just a troll?

You get what you give, I'm nice and helpful to people who are also nice and helpful, but if you're actually in the peanut gallery, the phrase literally meaning those who throw peanuts at a subject from the cheap seats, which in modern language we usually call trolling, you get a "spoon in the face" and should expect that treatment.

 

[Cherokee]

My brain would explode if I read through all this technobabble.
What I took from this thread:

There may be room for a second HV battery on the other side, fantastic !
And not too heavy.

Upping operational voltage is possible, but why ? For more power and speed ?
I’d think that would do little because of the power output limits of the electric motors.

And IF the motors were tweaked for more voltage there’d be more heat right ?
If they had more on time due to more battery would they be able to handle that ? Longer ON time ?

Any speculation on how much the mpg’s. would actually go up with twice the battery ?

I mean, if the hybrid typically gets ten more mpg’s than the Ecoboost doubling the battery size would give what ?
Five more mpg’s ?

 

[heady]

My brain would explode if I read through all this technobabble.
What I took from this thread:

There may be room for a second HV battery on the other side, fantastic !
And not too heavy.

Upping operational voltage is possible, but why ? For more power and speed ?
I’d think that would do little because of the power output limits of the electric motors.

Upping the voltage would be a significantly more involved task, because you'd have to completely replace the hybrid battery. Upping voltage is generally desirable, because it doesn't produce meaningfully as much heat for more power output. In a hybrid Maverick, to add battery capacity relatively easily and cheaply, you could only really add a parallel pack, this would provide the opportunity only for more current(amps) which also increases power, but it does increase heat. This extra heat is not significant if you are using a factory TCM, because you'd never be able to push the current (or voltage) past what Ford designed for a PHEV application of the transaxle.

When (if) Ford installs this transaxle in a PHEV, they will package it with the higher voltage and current capability that the transaxle is designed for. The voltages in hybrids and PHEVs swing over a wide range during charge and discharge, and they overlap; but the PHEV voltage is a higher peak due to more series cells.

And IF the motors were tweaked for more voltage there’d be more heat right ?
If they had more on time due to more battery would they be able to handle that ? Longer ON time ?

More heat for more current, but not really as much for more voltage. Increased battery capacity would give you more ability to draw more current, but the drive ratio of electric to gas would not really be impacted meaningfully. Each mode cycle in electric would be longer, but the ratio of engine to electric use would remain roughly the same.

Any speculation on how much the mpg’s. would actually go up with twice the battery ?

I mean, if the hybrid typically gets ten more mpg’s than the Ecoboost doubling the battery size would give what ?
Five more mpg’s ?

There would be no increase in MPG, if anything you'd expect a slight decrease from the additional weight. The only way you'd get increased MPG is if you also install an onboard or offboard charger to bring the state of charge up from a wall socket while parked, like a plug in hybrid does.

 

[Ron Neal]

You get what you give, I'm nice and helpful to people who are also nice and helpful, but if you're actually in the peanut gallery, the phrase literally meaning those who throw peanuts at a subject from the cheap seats, which in modern language we usually call trolling, you get a "spoon in the face" and should expect that treatment.

Nothing wrong with the peanut gallery and if you were a little less condescending we would not be trading posts. Life is too short to get in a pissing contest over peanuts so will end here and let you get back to bigger batteries.

 

[Cherokee]

heady, pertaining to your post #55

I assumed adding a second HV battery in parallel would nearly double the minutes the ICE could be off line.
In this more mpg’s ?

 

[heady]

Not really no, in a non plug-in hybrid the battery is just an energy accumulator, and all the energy comes from the gasoline. No free lunch, it's just a bigger "gas tank" for electrons, but it gets filled the same way, from the same place. No matter how big your gas tank gets, your mileage is the same, barring the extra weight from the bigger tank of course

*There are probably edge cases where that extra capacity could get you some benefit on some drive cycles, like regenerating on a long downhill, you might be able to capture more of the energy you spent getting up the hill, so there could be an improvement there when the smaller battery would fill up before you reached the bottom.

 

[todd92]

Just think of the performance gains to be had with a 4000 lb battery trailer!!!

 

[heady]

That's... a lot of batteries! I wouldn't be surprised if someone did it on some vehicle, some day, but by comparison the original T-Rex DIY range extending trailer was about 1000 lbs, before it became a camping trailer.

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