E30 Tunes

[The Real Maverick]

Definitely. That's kind of implied in this forum, although I suppose if someone were tuning their ecoboost for mpg, that discussion does also fit in here.




Well, that's an interesting opinion. Respectfully, who are you and why should I believe you over Ford's clear guidance in the manual? The Maverick ecoboost is not Flex Fuel capable, and the manual states not to use greater than E15 / 15% ethanol.

Jumpstart E30 might not be 30% ethanol, and yes, that's one reason why I bought the ethanol tester. But I'm very confident it's well over the 15% Ford recommends, and that is why I'm getting a tune. More power, better shifting, lower cost of fuel.

I actually did run one tank of this fuel over a year ago when I found it by accident - it was the only station nearby the highway, and I needed to fuel up. Later I researched and found it was actually E30, the pump I used just said 'Super 93' but the fact it was very cheap was a strong clue that it was not E10 93. My truck was fine after one tank, but again, no I don't think it's a good idea to run E30 without a tune.

The truck will automatically tune.

And the reason E30 is not recommend was explained above. Again, it's a missing paperwork issue, not a missing truck capability issue.

If the truck can auto-tune for driving in Denver, Colorado (5000 ft) and auto tune for driving in Leadville, Colorado (10,000 feet) it can and does self tune for E30. The process and reasons behind it are the same: oxygen to fuel ratio.

Adding ethanol adds oxygen so as far as the truck is concerned, ethanol lowers the elevation. Will make Leadville feel like Denver. (Or maybe Miami if you add enough ethanol.)

The hoses, tanks, pumps, gaskets are resistant to ethanol or they aren't. If they are safe for E15 they are safe for E30.

Hope that helps.

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[yamahaSHO]

The truck will automatically tune.

No, it won't automatically tune. It will bring the STFT and LTFT's really high though. Once you get high enough, you start to max out trims and even prior to that, when trims are really high, you generally start experiencing other running issues.

And the reason E30 is not recommend was explained above. Again, it's a missing paperwork issue, not a missing truck capability issue.

I'd like to see more on this as I've never heard of this.

If the truck can auto-tune for driving in Denver, Colorado (5000 ft) and auto tune for driving in Leadville, Colorado (10,000 feet) it can and does self tune for E30. The process and reasons behind it are the same: oxygen to fuel ratio.

Adding ethanol adds oxygen so as far as the truck is concerned, ethanol lowers the elevation. Will make Leadville feel like Denver. (Or maybe Miami if you add enough ethanol.)

You're confusing a tune with sensors doing their job. In Denver, the MAP will register less pressure as will baro. This will provide table lookups, which is NOT the same as scaling a fuel system. IE: One uses tables in the tune, the other runs up fuel trims past recommended values.

You should get more education on the subject prior to preaching. That said, you CAN lean out AF mixtures with adding ethanol on carbureted engines. I used to to this all the time with my ATV, power washer, and other carb'd engines when I lived in Coal Creek Canyon, CO (Golden, CO... but at 8k ft ASL). On a closed loop, computer controlled system, it will fight the tune it has and counter with high fuel trims.

The hoses, tanks, pumps, gaskets are resistant to ethanol or they aren't. If they are safe for E15 they are safe for E30.

Hope that helps.

All of that is fine. Been using E85 in vehicles with a lot of stock fueling (outside of pump and injectors... though, sometimes I have left the pump) on 80's and up vehicles without degradation of components.

 

[The Real Maverick]

I've been running higher than E15 in stock vehicles since 2006.

Ford usually has oversized injectors and the trim maps usually went to +35% and -35% from sea level conditions. More than plenty for E30.

Not a single check engine light below E50.

Cheers!

 

[The Real Maverick]

I don't preach.
I do it.

Then post the findings.

 

[yamahaSHO]

I've been running higher than E15 in stock vehicles since 2006.

Ford usually has oversized injectors and the trim maps usually went to +35% and -35% from sea level conditions. More than plenty for E30.

Not a single check engine light below E50.

Cheers!

I've done a lot of things that aren't advisable as well. I also like to dig into them a little more to see what is happening. I just showed a screenshot from the OEM map of a Ford Maverick. LTFT's will not reach +/-35% on the stock map. What you can do is have balance LTFT and STFT to keep it running, but it's not really a proper fix, especially with fuel trims that high.

What I have found with cars that rely on high fuel trims can range from a stumble here and there, lower MPG, lower power, etc. Some vehicles, with less forgiving strategies and engines, like to blow ring lands and head gaskets more easily.


I would like to know more about the California paperwork claim.

I don't preach.
I do it.

Then post the findings.

Well, I've been tuning for 20 years and what you posted on ethanol and the tuning above was highly inaccurate. So, call it whatever you want, you're not understanding the subject like you think you are.

 

[colinl]

I've been running higher than E15 in stock vehicles since 2006.

any of them Ford ecoboost engines? your hybrid experience is not particularly relevant to this discussion.

 

[The Real Maverick]

If you read carefully what I wrote carefully it is 100% correct.

I even said it would be not optimized.
It will work with doing no harm.
Whether you like it or not is up to you.

Whether you spend money on something that is likely unnecessary for E30 is up to you.

In some Fords you won't get a check engine light until the Trim tries to exceed +35% to -35%. If Ford changed that to 25% in the Maverick, then it's a step backwards. why don't you try it first and find out.

 

[Snox801]

No, it won't automatically tune. It will bring the STFT and LTFT's really high though. Once you get high enough, you start to max out trims and even prior to that, when trims are really high, you generally start experiencing other running issues.

I'd like to see more on this as I've never heard of this.




You're confusing a tune with sensors doing their job. In Denver, the MAP will register less pressure as will baro. This will provide table lookups, which is NOT the same as scaling a fuel system. IE: One uses tables in the tune, the other runs up fuel trims past recommended values.

You should get more education on the subject prior to preaching. That said, you CAN lean out AF mixtures with adding ethanol on carbureted engines. I used to to this all the time with my ATV, power washer, and other carb'd engines when I lived in Coal Creek Canyon, CO (Golden, CO... but at 8k ft ASL). On a closed loop, computer controlled system, it will fight the tune it has and counter with high fuel trims.





All of that is fine. Been using E85 in vehicles with a lot of stock fueling (outside of pump and injectors... though, sometimes I have left the pump) on 80's and up vehicles without degradation of components.

Beat me to it.

 

[Snox801]

Can you run e30 pump stock yep. I have is it ideal nope.
we can say both are correct.but SHO is not wrong. Big difference between the ratio the ecu tries to get to between gas and ethanol. It’s a mistake to just do a/f ratio.

 

[The Real Maverick]

The truck needs +3.5% fuel per 10% ethanol added compared to neat gasoline in the lookup table.

E10 = + 3.5%
E20 = + 7.0%
E30 = + 10.5%

I think your EcoBoost with only 25% trim range is not going to miss a beat.

Will the a/f ratio auto correct, yes it will.

Will the timing change, no. But you don't need it to if you goal is something other than faster track times

 

[The Real Maverick]

To this date, E15 is not allowed to be used in California unless you have a "Flex Fuel" branded vehicle. That said, no one sells it so you'd have to mix your own.

CA is a bit of an oddball.
While the rest of country adopted E10, California got a waiver. For the first two decades, California gas only contained roughly 5.7% ethanol. If you read all the stickers on all the pumps, they say "May contain up to 10% ethanol." None say "Contains 10% ethanol" because it's not a requirement. More like an option.


"RFA Calls on California to Stop “Slow-Walking” E15 Approval
October 3, 2023

State News


In a letter today to the California Air Resources Board, the Renewable Fuels Association called on the agency to expeditiously approve the use of cleaner-burning, lower-carbon E15 gasoline blends, which contain 15 percent ethanol. RFA noted that California is one of only two states in the country that still do not allow the use of E15, and the state’s failure to approve the fuel has caused unnecessary increases in greenhouse gas emissions and tailpipe pollution linked to smog, as well as higher prices at the pump for California consumers.

“California is woefully—and inexplicably—behind the rest of the nation when it comes to adopting a simple change to liquid fuel regulations that reduces both harmful tailpipe pollutants and GHG emissions from liquid-fueled light-duty vehicles,” RFA President and CEO Geoff Cooper wrote in a letter sent to CARB Chair Liane Randolph and Executive Officer Steven Cliff. “While CARB has taken some initial steps toward approval of E15, the process has been impaired by numerous delays, uncertain timelines, and a general lack of emphasis or prioritization from CARB leadership. All of the required testing and analysis on E15 has been completed and submitted to CARB; yet, the agency appears to be purposely ‘slow-walking’ the approval process.”

RFA’s letter encourages CARB to commit to a certain timeline for approval of E15: “We urge CARB to immediately approve the long-delayed E15 Tier II and Tier III reports, secure approval by the Environmental Policy Council by the end of the year, and initiate a rulemaking to approve E15 prior to CARB’s January 2024 board meeting.”

Cooper also noted that CARB’s continued failure to allow the use of E15 clearly contradicts the scope and purpose of the waiver California has historically received from the Clean Air Act’s preemption provisions. California has historically received a waiver from the Clean Air Act’s preemption clause because the state’s air pollution regulations have been “at least as protective” as federal standards. RFA argued that “…CARB’s current gasoline regulations are less protective of public health and welfare than the federal standards that allow for E15 consumption in all light-duty vehicles built since 2001.”

 

[yamahaSHO]

If you read carefully what I wrote carefully it is 100% correct.

Oh, I read it...

If the truck can auto-tune for driving in Denver, Colorado (5000 ft) and auto tune for driving in Leadville, Colorado (10,000 feet) it can and does self tune for E30. The process and reasons behind it are the same: oxygen to fuel ratio.

Adding ethanol adds oxygen so as far as the truck is concerned, ethanol lowers the elevation. Will make Leadville feel like Denver. (Or maybe Miami if you add enough ethanol.)

And the above is where I am telling you that you do not understand this like you think you do.

I even said it would be not optimized.
It will work with doing no harm.
Whether you like it or not is up to you.

There are actually instances where it can do harm. I've seen it enough times, especially one something with a little more power from a hair drier.

Whether you spend money on something that is likely unnecessary for E30 is up to you.

In some Fords you won't get a check engine light until the Trim tries to exceed +35% to -35%. If Ford changed that to 25% in the Maverick, then it's a step backwards. why don't you try it first and find out.

A proper calibration for a said fuel is something I would consider necessary. Unless you're trying to limp home and that's all the fuel you can find.

A CEL and maxing trims aren't necessarily the same. You can define a trigger at when CEL's occur (and what it actually is triggering it). FWIW, here's a stock F-150.

Here's a stock Ranger:

And Mustang:

The truck needs +3.5% fuel per 10% ethanol added compared to neat gasoline in the lookup table.

E10 = + 3.5%
E20 = + 7.0%
E30 = + 10.5%

When it comes to scaling the fuel injectors, I find somewhere around 13% to be closer for E30.

I think your EcoBoost with only 25% trim range is not going to miss a beat.

Will the a/f ratio auto correct, yes it will.

You don't know about adders, compensations, etc, huh? Yeah, those don't get fixed, especially in transients. There are also those time-based tables that don't care about anything but time.

Will the timing change, no. But you don't need it to if you goal is something other than faster track times.

Actually, the multiplier may change depending on perceived knock. Additionally, have you never driven faster vehicle on the street? It's actually quite fun. I do it daily in multiple vehicles and I don't need the track to tell me it's good, fun power.

To this date, E15 is not allowed to be used in California unless you have a "Flex Fuel" branded vehicle. That said, no one sells it so you'd have to mix your own.

CA is a bit of an oddball.
While the rest of country adopted E10, California got a waiver. For the first two decades, California gas only contained roughly 5.7% ethanol. If you read all the stickers on all the pumps, they say "May contain up to 10% ethanol." None say "Contains 10% ethanol" because it's not a requirement. More like an option.


"RFA Calls on California to Stop “Slow-Walking” E15 Approval
October 3, 2023

State News

In a letter today to the California Air Resources Board, the Renewable Fuels Association called on the agency to expeditiously approve the use of cleaner-burning, lower-carbon E15 gasoline blends, which contain 15 percent ethanol. RFA noted that California is one of only two states in the country that still do not allow the use of E15, and the state’s failure to approve the fuel has caused unnecessary increases in greenhouse gas emissions and tailpipe pollution linked to smog, as well as higher prices at the pump for California consumers.

“California is woefully—and inexplicably—behind the rest of the nation when it comes to adopting a simple change to liquid fuel regulations that reduces both harmful tailpipe pollutants and GHG emissions from liquid-fueled light-duty vehicles,” RFA President and CEO Geoff Cooper wrote in a letter sent to CARB Chair Liane Randolph and Executive Officer Steven Cliff. “While CARB has taken some initial steps toward approval of E15, the process has been impaired by numerous delays, uncertain timelines, and a general lack of emphasis or prioritization from CARB leadership. All of the required testing and analysis on E15 has been completed and submitted to CARB; yet, the agency appears to be purposely ‘slow-walking’ the approval process.”

RFA’s letter encourages CARB to commit to a certain timeline for approval of E15: “We urge CARB to immediately approve the long-delayed E15 Tier II and Tier III reports, secure approval by the Environmental Policy Council by the end of the year, and initiate a rulemaking to approve E15 prior to CARB’s January 2024 board meeting.”

Cooper also noted that CARB’s continued failure to allow the use of E15 clearly contradicts the scope and purpose of the waiver California has historically received from the Clean Air Act’s preemption provisions. California has historically received a waiver from the Clean Air Act’s preemption clause because the state’s air pollution regulations have been “at least as protective” as federal standards. RFA argued that “…CARB’s current gasoline regulations are less protective of public health and welfare than the federal standards that allow for E15 consumption in all light-duty vehicles built since 2001.”

I am more curious on where I can read on why this is affecting what Ford says is approved for fueling on the Maverick.

 

[The Real Maverick]

And you're saying:

E15 which shifts the Fuel trim 5-6.5% is A-OK and E30 which shifts the Fuel trim twice that; 13% in your own experience is not ok on a vehicle with 25% range.

Right........

 

[yamahaSHO]

And you're saying:

E15 which shifts the Fuel trim 5-6.5% is A-OK and E30 which shifts the Fuel trim twice that; 13% in your own experience is not ok on a vehicle with 25% range.

Right........

Well, if you want to walk me through building an E30 map and all the things to account for that isn't just injector scalar and fuel trims, have at it. Then you can school me on how all this works, because apparently 2 decades of doing this has just been trumped by a guy with a hybrid that explained fuel content changes are like altitude changes with an electronically controlled engine.

Fuel trims aren't meant to run up to high values. They make small corrections and in some cases, keep you from blowing up your engine.

 

[The Real Maverick]

Fuel trims aren't meant to run up to high values. They make small corrections and in some cases, keep you from blowing up your engine.

Let's make sure we're talking about the average driver on the street. You know, 99% of owners out there. I have no interest in street racing. That is the #1 sure fire way to "blow up" your engine. Or worse.

I am in the 99%. If you are in the 1% and want peak power, peak performance, peak speed, you go for it! And add those expensive tuners.

If you are reading this and fall into the 99% who:

A) want to buy a locally made product
B) buy a fuel that still emits, but emits less harmful tailpipe emissions
C) buy a product that creates local jobs
D) buy a product that (so far) no wars have been fought over
E) care to "experiment" for fun
F) drive the speed limits and drive on public roads in a respectable manner
G) maybe save a dollar here and there (lets face it, most of the time you are going to save tens of dollars, not thousands)

You CAN give E30 a try in your truck with no added equipment; and no modification.

I'm not saying you should.
I will bet pink slips you could.
If you wanted to. Most don't want to.
I DID when I lived in the corn belt.
I moved. I don't dislike ethanol. But I won't drive out of my way to get it either.

Hope that helps the 99%.

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