China Has "Flash Charging" EV's

[MaverickDragon]

BYD Blade 2.0 batteries are noted up to 150KWH capacity.
To charge that battery so quickly, the BYD fast charger runs at 1500KW.
Most houses are 100KW to 200KW panels, just slightly less than 1500.

As @Mavster Mechanic noted, that kind of charging is ridiculously far in excess of the availability of any household panel.

The existing "fast" charger network by Tesla operate at 1/3 of that power level.

To be efficient at those levels would require significantly higher voltages or the cabling costs would be extreme. Watts = Amps * Volts and more amps equals bigger cables or overheating results.

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[MaverickDragon]

The U.S. grid has 50% more generating capacity right now than demand.
Almost zero power plants run at full output. Many run 50%.

With AI data center proliferation, we'll likely use a lot of that "excess".
With a significant increase of electric cars, we could easily use all of that.

Some of the capacity you are citing is peak use generation that cannot be used on a continuing basis, so the figure is somewhat misleading.
The top end of fueled powerplant capacity also tends to be much more expensive.

Electrical power generation capability can be highly variable, as is demand.

With an increase of renewables, which accounts for over 55% increase with this form of energy production recently, an unused potential 50% capacity could easily become a deficit on the same day. While mitigation strategies can help, these also add considerable expense, often exceeding the cost of the power generation itself.

 

[MaverickDragon]

I would hold off with any BYD until they improve the quality of the BEVs they currently sell. Their 'burn rate' by self-ignition is higher than desired.
If I owned one, I would not park it in an attached garage. The energy involved to re-charge in such a short while could be pretty destructive if there was any problem. I'll pass.

A good point. Although the Blade 2.0 is "supposed" to be a much safer unit, there have been continuing fires in their EV's reported.
Some of these reports indicate spontaneous combustion of parked vehicles on the street.

In the USA, we don't have the option to buy BYD EVs currently, as the cars can't be imported.
Maybe that's a good thing. There are BYD busses and trucks made in California

With a large capacity battery, just like a large capacity gasoline tank, all that energy when it lets go in an uncontrolled manner can be an explosive problem.

It does seem that even minor battery damage in an EV is a lot like a fuel leak in an ICE vehicle.

 

[Glen Baker LLC]

I took this picture last month of a
Ford Escape in Utah with range extender plugged in to the trailer hitch.

 

[RR - All the way]

It's not just the charger as existing batteries in most EV's would detonate if they were charged that fast due to thermal runaway. The current "fast" chargers already cause battery life reduction.

The BYD Blade 2.0 LFP battery is what enables the ability to offer quick charging, due to its improved safety with high thermal resistance, where that lack is one of the major problems with "standard" EV batteries.

The LFP batteries offer a long lifespan as well as ultra-fast charging capability.
It looks like a game changer that makes other EV's and chargers effectively obsolete.
Maybe rollout of a premature technology wasn't the best way to spend billions.

Both in China and anywhere else that wants to go big with EVs is where the power is going to come from to fuel the EV fleet. Over half of China's power comes from coal fired plants.

The same innovation and technological advancements are already being applied to other power sources such as wind (it does not cause cancer in China) and solar and potential fusion in China. Most of the time "premature" rollouts lead to an enhanced and more worthwhile product. Meanwhile we drill baby drill and worry about the Strait of Hormuz....

Oil companies sell our light (cleaner)oil to foreign countries and import the more sludge-like dirty oil from the Mid-east mostly due to making more money and not needing to upgrade our fifty year old refineries which are designed to refine the heavy thick oil. At least that is my understanding; I do not mind being corrected if I am wrong. So, drill baby drill is for oil companies to export more of our clean oil and amass more wealth.

 

[babytruk]

The same innovation and technological advancements are already being applied to other power sources such as wind (it does not cause cancer in China) and solar and potential fusion in China. Most of the time "premature" rollouts lead to an enhanced and more worthwhile product. Meanwhile we drill baby drill and worry about the Strait of Hormuz....

Oil companies sell our light (cleaner)oil to foreign countries and import the more sludge-like dirty oil from the Mid-east mostly due to making more money and not needing to upgrade our fifty year old refineries which are designed to refine the heavy thick oil. At least that is my understanding; I do not mind being corrected if I am wrong. So, drill baby drill is for oil companies to export more of our clean oil and amass more wealth.

Where I am, we decided to”not” to upgrade the old Shell facilities to refine the Venezuelan “mud”. No problem with the sweet nectar like under Texas.
Heavily refining mud is very expensive.

 

[MaverickDragon]

The same innovation and technological advancements are already being applied to other power sources such as wind (it does not cause cancer in China) and solar and potential fusion in China. Most of the time "premature" rollouts lead to an enhanced and more worthwhile product.

Power source advancements?
Not much that I've seen. Some incremental improvements in solar panels, but not much else.
Even the blade batteries are variations on an existing theme, but nonetheless at least a potential improvement, although they still rely on incredibly harmful lithium as a component.

Fusion on the other hand is many decades away if ever, and IMHO more likely never.
I'd like to be wrong about that, but I don't think so. It works great in the heart of a star, but creating those condition outside of that scenario does not seem likely to me in my grandkids lifetime.

IMHO, a better alternative to the current battery centric focus would be in electric to fuel storage via hydrogen as a transfer mechanism. Hydrogen powered cars would only produce water, and wind, solar or any fuel capable of creating electricity could be used to create the fuel.
The majority of the existing infrastructure could also be reused.

Although not actually a fuel itself, it would make an excellent transfer mechanism, and with economies of scale, it could make batteries look ridiculously expensive by comparison.
Not only from an economics perspective, a hydrogen fuel based system would be incredibly clean and non-toxic compared with every other alternative.

Unfortunately, hydrogen also happens to be the most explosive element on the planet, but with the right safeguards, that capability has already been proven to work.

Oops - Half my day is gone. Time to say adios MTC...

 

[Mavster Mechanic]

Power source advancements?
Not much that I've seen. Some incremental improvements in solar panels, but not much else.
Even the blade batteries are variations on an existing theme, but nonetheless at least a potential improvement, although they still rely on incredibly harmful lithium as a component.

Fusion on the other hand is many decades away if ever, and IMHO more likely never.
I'd like to be wrong about that, but I don't think so. It works great in the heart of a star, but creating those condition outside of that scenario does not seem likely to me in my grandkids lifetime.

IMHO, a better alternative to the current battery centric focus would be in electric to fuel storage via hydrogen as a transfer mechanism. Hydrogen powered cars would only produce water, and wind, solar or any fuel capable of creating electricity could be used to create the fuel.
The majority of the existing infrastructure could also be reused.

Although not actually a fuel itself, it would make an excellent transfer mechanism, and with economies of scale, it could make batteries look ridiculously expensive by comparison.
Not only from an economics perspective, a hydrogen fuel based system would be incredibly clean and non-toxic compared with every other alternative.

Unfortunately, hydrogen also happens to be the most explosive element on the planet, but with the right safeguards, that capability has already been proven to work.

Oops - Half my day is gone. Time to say adios MTC...

You need a 10,000 psi hydrogen tank to carry 300 miles worth.

Hydrogen being the smallest molecule in the universe leaks like a sieve. It burns so cleanly it burns with an invisible flame.

It's also expensive to manufacture.

It's anything but safe and practical.

 

[bbhaag]

Funny!

Ethanol gets a dime of government help for every dollar of subsidy big oil companies get. How come you did not talk about oil subsidies?

Big oil is a big problem.

Perhaps you can expand on what you find funny. I do not find one industry subsidizing another even larger industry at our expense even remotely funny.

 

[Bob zimmerman]

The rest of the world is advancing EV battery technology year over year while in the US we have a very unfriendly administration towards EV’s.

We fall further behind while everyone else advances.

EV’s are coming from everywhere BYD is leading the pack and soon you will hear about them building a factory in the US to flood our market. Meanwhile Detroit stopped trying after they were essentially forced out of the game.

Where I live, renewables are gaining ground and our power utilities are committed to adding them to our grid. Solar, wind and battery storage are their continued investments.

You can scream into the wind as long as you like but the US needs to catch up or be crushed by advancing technology outside of our borders.
Bob

 

[bbhaag]

Except your numbers are way off.

Ethanol used 14% of the corn. So 14% of the acres makes sense, right?

54% of the corn was sent over-seas. Much of it was sent to Russia before the Ukraine war. So assuming that we stopped doing that as "sanctions" there is more corn available than ever before.

No they are not. Do a little bit more looking and you will come to the conclusion that 30-40 million acres of land are dedicated to ethanol production and it's LOOSER.

I find it ironic that so many people bitch and moan about the EV subsidies that the taxpayer was providing but when you mention ethanol production and how it is such a f'ing looser those people become silent or like you try and defend it.

 

[bbhaag]

Alternative energy is great, except when it isn't.
It isn't scalable.

You can't make it sunnier or make the wind blow harder because more power is needed.
Alternative energy can also experience wide scale outages at the worst possible times.
That entire prairie covered in solar panels in your example can lose 95% of its capability with a few clouds overhead. A cloudy day in a heat wave can easily mean a power outage.

Excess power can be stored in batteries, but that is the expensive part of the renewable equation, and to be dependable, that is a requirement which also means less power is available for use in order to divert power for charging batteries when none is produced at night.

I happen to know what I'm talking about as I have designed and built solar stand alone and hybrid systems over the last quarter century. Solar alone is not viable as a primary grid power supplier.

Not true at all. Here is a very informative video that I am sure you will not watch because you have already made up your mind but for anyone else this is a great video about the truth on solar panels and other alternative energy.

 

[d7602002]

I've been reading this thread and I'm slightly confused. Is this a good thing about fast charging? Is it a bad thing? Seems to be like arguing back and forth.

Is this something that we in the US would do? Or, because it seems with many, many Americans that if the USA didn't invent it or if the USA is not the best at it then it's stupid and it's unimportant so people don't care, is that it?

 

[Mavster Mechanic]

I've been reading this thread and I'm slightly confused. Is this a good thing about fast charging? Is it a bad thing? Seems to be like arguing back and forth.

Is this something that we in the US would do? Or, because it seems with many, many Americans that if the USA didn't invent it or if the USA is not the best at it then it's stupid and it's unimportant so people don't care, is that it?

Most people say "I will get an EV when it refills as fast as my gas/diesel vehicle does."

Well, in China they are about there.
A matter of time before it is here.

 

[grumpyunk]

I've been reading this thread and I'm slightly confused. Is this a good thing about fast charging? Is it a bad thing? Seems to be like arguing back and forth.

Is this something that we in the US would do? Or, because it seems with many, many Americans that if the USA didn't invent it or if the USA is not the best at it then it's stupid and it's unimportant so people don't care, is that it?

If the announcement is true, and the product has good quality and does not burn on a whim, it tends to indicate that BEVs can be recharged almost as fast as filling a tank with gasoline. That makes it more competitive. OTOH, you will have to wait for the charging stations to be built and installed to take advantage of the improved charging speed.
Given the problems that BYD is having with their vehicles combusting, I will be wary. There are several sites that report China happenings that are somewhat kept out of the media in the USA. You will have to visit YT and do a bit of searching. BEVs have their place, and they will fit there. Once the Federal subsidy was stopped, as originally planned, BEVs became less attractive to the end user.
China BEVs are being exported to EU nations, and drving local BEV manufacturers out of the market. Russia had a load of 'black market' autos imported, and they had lots of problems with suspension and body corrosion. Their 'warranty' did not come with the black market import.
Buyers should be wary of attractive low prices, and investigate before purchase.

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