Would you buy an EV maverick for 25-30k?

[MaverickEVwouldBeNice]

This isn’t necessarily true. They have nothing about lost energy to transfer power either. Plus if it’s only about emission. E85 or ethanol would be easy conversions. Without the need for massively more polluting of mining for batteries, burning ev cars, or any of the massive amounts of pollution created for the new infrastructure.
I’m not against ev’s but the fact is they don’t fit people’s life’s right now and the saving the planet part is crap. It’s a feel good issue. Pollution is just moved to a different area. One I might say can’t be helped by planting more trees.

You cannot simply convert a gas engine to ethanol or E85. You would have to replace all the gaskets, fuel pump, fuel injectors, and the fuel lines, it would require reprogramming of the fuel injection system, and who knows what else. On top of that, ethanol is 30% less efficient than gasoline, so you would need to refine and transport 30% more fuel.

With increased number of EVs on the road, though, there is another scenario that is often ignored:

When you no longer have to transport fuel through multiple steps from well head to the end user, the gasoline that is not used by the cars, the diesel that is not used by the trucks and trains to move the gasoline, and the electricity that is not needed to run pipelines, all of that energy is then available to produce more electricity. And, as I already stated, this is a much more efficient transfer of energy than the internal combustion engine.

Is our grid currently able to flip the switch overnight and provide electricity for millions of EVs? Of course not. Nobody is saying that. But that also won't happen because we don't have the manufacturing capability to add millions of EVs in a year. As we scale up production of EVs, we need to invest in our grid, no doubt!

It also is not just about emissions. Ethanol is processed from corn in the US, which is a very "hungry" and "thirsty" plant. We already grow more corn for ethanol production and livestock feed than we grow for direct human consumption. We cannot continue to grow ever more corn or we won't be able to grow anything else.

Lastly, I am sorry your electricity costs are going up. I doubt that that has much to do with EV adoption, though.

How do I know this? Well, I use anecdotal evidence, just like you did, only I pick out the data that suits me: I drive an EV, yet my electric rates have not gone up in over 5 years.

Boohoo.

I do agree with you on one point: EVs aren't for everyone. They still cost too much for most people to afford, and the public charging infrastructure is not robust enough to support all those folks who cannot charge at home: people who live in apartment buildings or who only have on-street parking spaces.

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[Gonzo chris]

Gullible could be another term. Definitely not realistic.

Then again if they have batteries that get 700 to 900 miles and only takes 10 minutes on a fast charge to get 80% it may be an option. If the replacement battery is reasonably priced. Which still could make ownership cost prohibited.

900 miles? Lol , so at 70mph average that's about 13 hours straight driving without a 10 minute break. Yup most people do that every day...... AGAIN nobody reasonable is saying EVs are best or even suitable for all cases but they are suitable for many.
There are batteries that fast charge to 80% in less than 20 so getting there. Yes battery cost is high which is a problem for the 2nd owner. A 50" inch flat screen was once very expensive. The answer is to work on the issue not say American companies are too stupid to figure it out.

 

[Gonzo chris]

How much do you have invested in EV stocks? Sounds like a lot. Word to the wise...diversify. 'Cuz we 'aint drivin' no damn EV!

Seriously, my investments are run mostly by a professional not me. People with your thought process are going to be dying off. US manufacturers have retreated from Europe, GM sells more cars in China ( and they're all in in EVs) than the US. I think the "big 3" should keep making gas cars and hybrids but if they listen to you they'll be out of business in 15 years.

 

[Gonzo chris]

Problem is we are never gonna sell them cars. We simply can’t compete with them. Not only do they not have heavy mandates but they also steal all the innovations that come with free markets. Labor is cheap. So yes we should continue to cater to the countries that pay the bills. Yes they sold more cars in china but with less profit or overall value. Easy to sell a lot of cars when you can steal everyone’s tech and use forced labor to drive down prices.

Not to mention look at the reason they have to sell so many. You think we have toss away cars. They even include car sales of those “golf cart” cars they sell. So yes they are a large market but they also still buy more petroleum based cars than electric.
Why is the American taxpayers who subsidize all these electric mandates worried about the Chinese market we have large enough ones with the rest of the world. Oh that’ right that how the people in dc are getting rich.
Fact is electric cars just do not work for most people nearly as well as petroleum ones. Cost more and need massive government subsidies to even try and sell a fraction of Ice engines.

Take a minute to read some history on several of the major accomplishments in travel. Never once has the government been able to do what the market couldn’t.
auto industry, railroads, aviation. All driven by having a better product driven by demand. Never has a “better” version taken so much force to convert. Maybe because ev’s are just not that good.

I'm against Chinese government subsidized cars taking over the world that's why I want US companies to ignore the luddites. Government roads, airports etc helped a lot. I don't want a government run company but to say in a modern world with competing economies there's no role for the government is black and white thinking. How many cars do US manufacturers sell in Europe?

 

[Snox801]

You cannot simply convert a gas engine to ethanol or E85. You would have to replace all the gaskets, fuel pump, fuel injectors, and the fuel lines, it would require reprogramming of the fuel injection system, and who knows what else. On top of that, ethanol is 30% less efficient than gasoline, so you would need to refine and transport 30% more fuel.

With increased number of EVs on the road, though, there is another scenario that is often ignored:

When you no longer have to transport fuel through multiple steps from well head to the end user, the gasoline that is not used by the cars, the diesel that is not used by the trucks and trains to move the gasoline, and the electricity that is not needed to run pipelines, all of that energy is then available to produce more electricity. And, as I already stated, this is a much more efficient transfer of energy than the internal combustion engine.

Is our grid currently able to flip the switch overnight and provide electricity for millions of EVs? Of course not. Nobody is saying that. But that also won't happen because we don't have the manufacturing capability to add millions of EVs in a year. As we scale up production of EVs, we need to invest in our grid, no doubt!

It also is not just about emissions. Ethanol is processed from corn in the US, which is a very "hungry" and "thirsty" plant. We already grow more corn for ethanol production and livestock feed than we grow for direct human consumption. We cannot continue to grow ever more corn or we won't be able to grow anything else.

Lastly, I am sorry your electricity costs are going up. I doubt that that has much to do with EV adoption, though.

How do I know this? Well, I use anecdotal evidence, just like you did, only I pick out the data that suits me: I drive an EV, yet my electric rates have not gone up in over 5 years.

Boohoo.

I do agree with you on one point: EVs aren't for everyone. They still cost too much for most people to afford, and the public charging infrastructure is not robust enough to support all those folks who cannot charge at home: people who live in apartment buildings or who only have on-street parking spaces.

Well for one I know this because our state electric company said this. For two yes you can swap all new vehicles to ethanol very easy. Most of any issues is the hpfp on DI engines . How do I know this? Because I’ve done a ton of them. Oh and the fact one of my good buddies runs the dyno that test for emission for the big 3 in the dirty D.
I live in Michigan where a lot of the building and development happens. Everyone knows someone who works on them. The guy next door works on battery tech.
So boo hoo that nobody wants your crappy EV’s. Sorry not gonna win with one. Because you have zero idea about vehicles
lastly yes ethanol is kinda the best fuel for your goal.

First it’s always been about the carbon footprint when talking. Environmental issues.
Very little carbon almost none. Second the extra corn we would have to grow would also help scrub the air. So it would be more than carbon neutral. Lastly according to the latest data from E1 it’s far better than electricity. So to make electricity cleaner we need solar or wind.

So we either clear land for panels or we clear more to grow corn. Which then also cleans the air.
So if you truly were about green you would be pushing something like e85 and not ev’s. We have the infrastructure in place all modern cars can be swapped over definitely everything this last decade.
That seems far easier than swapping every car for an ev.
And it’s better for the environment.
As for diesel soy beans.
But then again we know it’s not about the environment

 

[Snox801]

You cannot simply convert a gas engine to ethanol or E85. You would have to replace all the gaskets, fuel pump, fuel injectors, and the fuel lines, it would require reprogramming of the fuel injection system, and who knows what else. On top of that, ethanol is 30% less efficient than gasoline, so you would need to refine and transport 30% more fuel.

With increased number of EVs on the road, though, there is another scenario that is often ignored:

When you no longer have to transport fuel through multiple steps from well head to the end user, the gasoline that is not used by the cars, the diesel that is not used by the trucks and trains to move the gasoline, and the electricity that is not needed to run pipelines, all of that energy is then available to produce more electricity. And, as I already stated, this is a much more efficient transfer of energy than the internal combustion engine.

Is our grid currently able to flip the switch overnight and provide electricity for millions of EVs? Of course not. Nobody is saying that. But that also won't happen because we don't have the manufacturing capability to add millions of EVs in a year. As we scale up production of EVs, we need to invest in our grid, no doubt!

It also is not just about emissions. Ethanol is processed from corn in the US, which is a very "hungry" and "thirsty" plant. We already grow more corn for ethanol production and livestock feed than we grow for direct human consumption. We cannot continue to grow ever more corn or we won't be able to grow anything else.

Lastly, I am sorry your electricity costs are going up. I doubt that that has much to do with EV adoption, though.

How do I know this? Well, I use anecdotal evidence, just like you did, only I pick out the data that suits me: I drive an EV, yet my electric rates have not gone up in over 5 years.

Boohoo.

I do agree with you on one point: EVs aren't for everyone. They still cost too much for most people to afford, and the public charging infrastructure is not robust enough to support all those folks who cannot charge at home: people who live in apartment buildings or who only have on-street parking spaces.

I would like a serious answer. You stated it not about emissions. What else could one argue? Why go through all of this otherwise.
I agree though it not about that or they would go e85. Everything is already in place. What they want is to be able to make money off the boondoggle that ev’s they buy a bunch of stock in the companies needed then pass a bill forcing it. They did it with e85, wind mills, solar. Take a look at the trades of leading house members before this started. That tells you all you need to know. Oh and the fact that they turned on Elon so fast because he has stated obvious facts and doesn’t fall in line.

 

[Gonzo chris]

Well for one I know this because our state electric company said this. For two yes you can swap all new vehicles to ethanol very easy. Most of any issues is the hpfp on DI engines . How do I know this? Because I’ve done a ton of them. Oh and the fact one of my good buddies runs the dyno that test for emission for the big 3 in the dirty D.
I live in Michigan where a lot of the building and development happens. Everyone knows someone who works on them. The guy next door works on battery tech.
So boo hoo that nobody wants your crappy EV’s. Sorry not gonna win with one. Because you have zero idea about vehicles
lastly yes ethanol is kinda the best fuel for your goal.

First it’s always been about the carbon footprint when talking. Environmental issues.
Very little carbon almost none. Second the extra corn we would have to grow would also help scrub the air. So it would be more than carbon neutral. Lastly according to the latest data from E1 it’s far better than electricity. So to make electricity cleaner we need solar or wind.

So we either clear land for panels or we clear more to grow corn. Which then also cleans the air.
So if you truly were about green you would be pushing something like e85 and not ev’s. We have the infrastructure in place all modern cars can be swapped over definitely everything this last decade.
That seems far easier than swapping every car for an ev.
And it’s better for the environment.
As for diesel soy beans.
But then again we know it’s not about the environment

So nobody wants or is buying EVs but charging all of them non-existent EVs is why your electricity is going up?
It's not "swapping a car" it'd be getting one at your next car purchase and I'm not even certain an EV will be my next purchase because I'm leaning towards a Maverick.
Lemme grab my tinfoil hat for the " it's not about the environment" part. Think I hear a black helicopter hovering over head......
You are correct though there are other things we can do to help. Like HVAC. I had an oil boiler that burned 700 to 900 gallons of heating oil a year with no emissions. I took it out and replaced it with Mitsubishi mini splits hyper heat units and an HPWH and now burn zero at home and I live in the Northern suburbs of Philly so it does get cold here. My father in law ( old curmudgeon) doesn't understand how we have heat in winter ....

 

[Gonzo chris]

I would like a serious answer. You stated it not about emissions. What else could one argue? Why go through all of this otherwise.
I agree though it not about that or they would go e85. Everything is already in place. What they want is to be able to make money off the boondoggle that ev’s they buy a bunch of stock in the companies needed then pass a bill forcing it. They did it with e85, wind mills, solar. Take a look at the trades of leading house members before this started. That tells you all you need to know. Oh and the fact that they turned on Elon so fast because he has stated obvious facts and doesn’t fall in line.

Does e85 produce CO2? Who's "they". So solar and wind is a "boondoggle"? I didn't like Elon before , always thought he was a d-bag, I agree with some of what he says but still feel the same . It's anti-American but I try to separate my politics from science

 

[Snox801]

900 miles? Lol , so at 70mph average that's about 13 hours straight driving without a 10 minute break. Yup most people do that every day...... AGAIN nobody reasonable is saying EVs are best or even suitable for all cases but they are suitable for many.
There are batteries that fast charge to 80% in less than 20 so getting there. Yes battery cost is high which is a problem for the 2nd owner. A 50" inch flat screen was once very expensive. The answer is to work on the issue not say American companies are too stupid to figure it out.

I do drive like that several times a week I have a 36 gallon tank an I can tell you I can pull in while a Tesla is charging, fill up gets snacks and pee. And be gone while they still charge.
But I know I’m not everyone. Second why not put the same money into ice tech also. The fact I can get high 20mpg in my 150 now up from high teens in 15 says the same thing. I think ev’s have a place but this crap that it is the future and about emissions is crap. It’s a money grab.
Would I buy one for a sports car sure. Short trips yep. But because it works not because I’m forced to or because some guy on the internet or hiv tells me I need one.
Full disclosure I have and have had large investments into rivian.

 

[Snox801]

I'm against Chinese government subsidized cars taking over the world that's why I want US companies to ignore the luddites. Government roads, airports etc helped a lot. I don't want a government run company but to say in a modern world with competing economies there's no role for the government is black and white thinking. How many cars do US manufacturers sell in Europe?

Well all imperial data through time has always showed the free market wins everytime. Every single time since it’s been tried. It also has raised more people in the world out of poverty than any other form. China can’t subsidize them forever. Eventually they run out of other people’s money to give away.
Also if we don’t sell to them they can’t steal our tech. Then they would be force to compete on a level field which they can’t.

 

[Snox801]

Does e85 produce CO2? Who's "they"

Yep but it’s always been about carbon output according to epa testing. Second that co2 would be cleaned up by those terrible thirsty plants we would have to grow to make it. When talking they I mean the government. If you are old enough to remember. They pushed e85 very hard for the same reasons they are pushing ev now. They will keep moving as they are aloud to make money and buy stock before the bills pass. That goes for almost all lawmakers.

 

[Snox801]

Does e85 produce CO2?

what happens to the waste from your ev battery, all the environmental damage from mining?
I’m not saying it’s worse but you can’t point to one issues of ice without at least acknowledging the other.

And unfortunately this issue must mix politics. Because they are the ones mandating it. So yes that matters

 

[Snox801]

Thanks! It should make travel easier but honestly I don't drive the Mustang that much. Not because I have range anxiety, fear of cold weather driving, or anything like that I just don't like putting the miles on it.

Unfortunately the Mustang only has a max of 150 kw and the best I've seen is around 125 last summer when we took a trip from Peoria IL to Cleveland OH and back to visit family so I will never be able to take full advantage of the higher voltage that newer EVs can.

Anyway, sorry to everyone for derailing the thread. It looks like @Gonzo chris is on a streak right of stirring shit up so I don't want to get in the way.

I think you mispelled suv. No matter how hard ford tries to convince us its a mustang its not. lol
Cool car but not a mustang

 

[Snox801]

To the admins, fuck it, just shut this thread down. I wanted to have a decent conversation, but it's just devolved into political BS.

Well it wasn’t unproductive. You got your answers.
Lol

 

[SkeeterB]

No

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