Market changing

[commadorebob]

I have not been tracking the Maverick resell in my area as I plan to run the wheels off mine. But dealer's inventory seems to indicate all new Mavericks they have "in stock" are the ones that are inbound. They have one used XL EB that smells like a trade or former fleet. So, they are not lingering here.

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[Jman79]

It was cool to think when I ordered that I'd escape the new car immediate price drop. But we all knew this was just a bubble. Those touting the new norm we're looking to delude themselves and convince the realists so they can continue to live in their nice bubble. But bubbles are fragile and don't last. Some have a good run and slowly sink, others pop spectacularly.

I just took my order two days back and still consider my XL a great deal im today's PA market. I'll keep it long enough to reap the value it holds no matter the market. No illusions that I'm trading up for a profit. Those who did, consider yourselves lucky to capitalize on a unique circumstance in history!

 

[merlin101]

Can you show me some of those hard stats for the hybrid? Most recent information (which is not a hard stat) from Consumer Reports shows that the Hybrid has just average reliability (60 out of 100) where the Ecoboost has above average reliability (71).

The general populace does care about potential fire hazards (recall) where the only thing Ford did was cut off some plastic shutters. The general populace does care about their vehicles starting consistently and the Deep Sleep mode is real which Ford's response is - it's normal, or get a battery tender. That doesn't address grabby brakes or any of the other TSBs and recalls.

It's not an echo chamber when there are noted NHTSA recalls impact multiple years of hybrid production.

Honestly i don’t have time to re-litigate the issue at the moment, so i apologize i can’t dredge up all the source material i read—but if you look at it by any metric the hybrid has good reliability (especially for an initial launch of a new model), even when compared against new launches of existing models, particularly with trucks. People have made a lot out of the number of recalls when other trucks have had substantially more recalls on new versions (IE Chevy, GMC and dodge especially if i remember), and those were for standard drivetrains not hybrids.

Also, general incident and failure rates of most components when looked at objectively have been quite low, even though we hear about them all the time in here. And that’s what i mean about an echo chamber—we have a slightly skewed view of the reliability from small groups who do experience a given problem.
None of this is to excuse the issues that have been or do exist now—only that we need to look at them in context, and really with context the hybrids seem to be doing well. I’ll see if i can find some of the articles i had read through about this stuff later if i can.

 

[710-oil-614]

Honestly i don’t have time to re-litigate the issue at the moment, so i apologize i can’t dredge up all the source material i read—but if you look at it by any metric the hybrid has good reliability (especially for an initial launch of a new model), even when compared against new launches of existing models, particularly with trucks. People have made a lot out of the number of recalls when other trucks have had substantially more recalls on new versions (IE Chevy, GMC and dodge especially if i remember), and those were for standard drivetrains not hybrids.

Also, general incident and failure rates of most components when looked at objectively have been quite low, even though we hear about them all the time in here. And that’s what i mean about an echo chamber—we have a slightly skewed view of the reliability from small groups who do experience a given problem.
None of this is to excuse the issues that have been or do exist now—only that we need to look at them in context, and really with context the hybrids seem to be doing well. I’ll see if i can find some of the articles i had read through about this stuff later if i can.

Here are some numbers....the fire risk involved two recalls totaling 225,000 Ford hybrids. It took two recalls because Ford was aware of multiple vehicle fires after the first recall.

In addition to those hybrid specific engine fires - there have been 6 additional recalls for issues ranging from airbag recalls, holes in the fuel tank, improperly attached seat belts, loss of trailer brake functionality, unintended brake light illumination, and turn signal warning malfuctions.

On top of the 8 recalls - there have been 25 TSBs covering rough and surging idle/sulfur smell, Deep Sleep notification, 12v battery discharge, hybrid brake grab....

 

[merlin101]

Here are some numbers....the fire risk involved two recalls totaling 225,000 Ford hybrids. It took two recalls because Ford was aware of multiple vehicle fires after the first recall.

In addition to those hybrid specific engine fires - there have been 6 additional recalls for issues ranging from airbag recalls, holes in the fuel tank, improperly attached seat belts, loss of trailer brake functionality, unintended brake light illumination, and turn signal warning malfuctions.

On top of the 8 recalls - there have been 25 TSBs covering rough and surging idle/sulfur smell, Deep Sleep notification, 12v battery discharge, hybrid brake grab....

See, this is what I’m talking about though. This is without context. IE, recalls in of themselves are not the only factor to consider.
Take the Chevy Silverado. Mid 2010s there were models with over a dozen recalls in a similar time frame to the Maverick, including multiples for the same or similar safety issues. That’s a standard drivetrain, highly popular vehicle that I’m quite certain many Maverick detractors would gladly tout as an example of a “real” truck that is “more reliable.”

As for TSBs? Using Silverados as another example, virtually every single model year has hundreds, not just dozens. So what standards are we comparing against? Some unrealistic idea that a vehicle can only have none or near-none to be acceptable or good? Hell, even Toyota Tacomas, a bastion of reliability reputation, has a similar amount of TSBs for a similar time frame as the maverick—from what i can see.

Every vehicle will have recalls. Especially brand new models in the first couple years. Honestly I’d be more worried if there weren’t any recalls. That would insinuate to me that Ford wasn’t paying attention, just as much as if there were way too many. And when we compare this vehicle to others, it tends to have a similar or smaller number of issues from everything I’ve seen. And that’s what appears most people that look into this have noted as well, which is why it keeps getting touted as above average reliability.

 

[Montana]

See, this is what I’m talking about though. This is without context. IE, recalls in of themselves are not the only factor to consider.
Take the Chevy Silverado. Mid 2010s there were models with over a dozen recalls in a similar time frame to the Maverick, including multiples for the same or similar safety issues. That’s a standard drivetrain, highly popular vehicle that I’m quite certain many Maverick detractors would gladly tout as an example of a “real” truck that is “more reliable.”

As for TSBs? Using Silverados as another example, virtually every single model year has hundreds, not just dozens. So what standards are we comparing against? Some unrealistic idea that a vehicle can only have none or near-none to be acceptable or good? Hell, even Toyota Tacomas, a bastion of reliability reputation, has a similar amount of TSBs for a similar time frame as the maverick—from what i can see.

Every vehicle will have recalls. Especially brand new models in the first couple years. Honestly I’d be more worried if there weren’t any recalls. That would insinuate to me that Ford wasn’t paying attention, just as much as if there were way too many. And when we compare this vehicle to others, it tends to have a similar or smaller number of issues from everything I’ve seen. And that’s what appears most people that look into this have noted as well, which is why it keeps getting touted as above average reliability.

Numbers seem pretty contextual to me...

Of those numbers, that accounts for over 70% of vehicles produced in the timeframe those recalls were issued... more so if you are referring to the deep sleep issue.

That's a big deal, and it's not just Maverick owners voicing their opinions on it. Escapes, Bronco's, Mach-E's, F150's.... All over the internet on every forum it's the same thing. They are not trusted. And to further combat your opinion, I've had random people who see the truck ask me if it was a Hybrid and then go "yea, those things are having some issues huh". People are definitely aware of the issues.

Do you see more people on this forum, and this forum alone, coming in going "I traded my EB for a Hybrid" or vice versa? Wonder why.

Yes, every vehicle has recalls - the issue is WHAT recalls? And I'm not sitting here from a podium trying to say the EB is some massive upgrade - but if you look at this history of this forum since day 1 on the Maverick recalls, the tables have definitely turned. Personally I'd love a Hybrid AWD that doesn't have those issues that ANY of the Mavericks have - but given the nature of recalls across multiple FORD platforms currently, it's likely not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Ozarkbeard]

in our microcosm yes

Yes. The ecoboost microcosm.

 

[rmay635703]

The Maverick is one of the only vehicles Ford has that people want. All other models days to sale have been growing dramatically the last -5 months.

as I have mentioned before wholesale values are collapsing and have been dropping for a year especially on new.

Give it time and the retail market will start to reflect the drops in wholesale values.

 

[merlin101]

Numbers seem pretty contextual to me...

Of those numbers, that accounts for over 70% of vehicles produced in the timeframe those recalls were issued... more so if you are referring to the deep sleep issue.

That's a big deal, and it's not just Maverick owners voicing their opinions on it. Escapes, Bronco's, Mach-E's, F150's.... All over the internet on every forum it's the same thing. They are not trusted. And to further combat your opinion, I've had random people who see the truck ask me if it was a Hybrid and then go "yea, those things are having some issues huh". People are definitely aware of the issues.

Do you see more people on this forum, and this forum alone, coming in going "I traded my EB for a Hybrid" or vice versa? Wonder why.

Yes, every vehicle has recalls - the issue is WHAT recalls? And I'm not sitting here from a podium trying to say the EB is some massive upgrade - but if you look at this history of this forum since day 1 on the Maverick recalls, the tables have definitely turned. Personally I'd love a Hybrid AWD that doesn't have those issues that ANY of the Mavericks have - but given the nature of recalls across multiple FORD platforms currently, it's likely not going to happen anytime soon.

The Numbers by themselves are without context is what i mean—ie you can’t make a determination off of them alone. That’s why there needs to be a comparison to see what those numbers mean. In this case, those numbers are lower for the Maverick than many of its peers, putting it above average. The number of vehicles affected by a given recall isn’t really an indicator of the severity of the problems either—like you say, what the recall is for matters, as does the incident rate among affected vehicles (10 of 200k vehicles isn’t a common issue, while 500 would indicate a more common problem, even though both could lead to a recall for all 200k vehicles).

And other vehicles have identical or very similar types of problems as well—nothing happening on the Maverick recalls or TSBs is strangely unique or severe that I’m aware of.

Prius’s have had multiple recalls on the hybrid drivetrain losing power while in use, and other hybrid system failures. Hyundai and Kia had recalls for potential battery fires. Chevy silverados had seat belts that failed (and other worse things as well). The list goes on and on.

There’s nothing convincing that I’ve seen demonstrating maverick hybrids have unusual or unacceptable rates of failures vs other comparable vehicles. It does have problems (especially early model s), and they suck when they happen. But to Fords credit they have been acknowledging most of them at a (mostly) reasonable pace, and all the info I’m seeing shows improvements each model year overall.

Also, of course nobody is going from EB to Hybrid! The wait has been a year long, it’s virtually impossible to say “I’m gonna sell my EB and go pickup a hybrid Mav.” There’s always exceptions, but generally speaking up until very recently that’s been the norm.

To each there own though. If I had some absurd catastrophic failure on a hybrid Mav I’d probably feel differently. But that also wouldn’t change the data.

 

[IHateSpeedbumps]

I just bought a 2024 Lariat Hybrid BAP that a dealer had just received for a customer. They were apparently a flipper who had previously purchased 2 other Mavericks and sold them back to the used car lot at the dealer. He didn't want to go through the hassle I guess because he wouldn't get the same profit. Win for me since it was cheaper than if I ordered it and it came with a few extras like the rubber floor mats and a rubber bed mat.

 

[Nittany]

Yes, but the Mav hybrids are developing a reputation and it's not a great one.

Quite the contrary here in North Carolina. The Mav hybrids have a great reputation here.

 

[Mainer500]

After living with both for a couple of months, I’m selling our hybrid Maverick because we decided the EB AWD works better for us.

Carmax gave the highest offer over Carvana, driveway.com, etc.

Here‘s the interesting part. Carmax appraiser told me I might do better at an independent Ford dealer. I called the place where we bought the EB and they were not interested In an outright purchase.

Salesman I talked to said they have 3 pre-owned on their lot right now and 2 more prepping for sale. All are trade-ins on 2024s.

New inventory arriving regular basis, always have at least 1 declined Maverick order for sale at msrp and buyers are no longer willing to pay premiums for pre-owned Mavericks.

Hybrid going to Carmax tomorrow.

We used Carmax when we sold my wife's Fiesta to buy her 22 XLT AWD. They gave us 2.5k more then the dealership that we bought it from. Also, with interest rates at around 7+ percent for new vehicles, I'm sure the entire auto market is going to take a hit. Plus, the normal family is Paying more for groceries and other daily life expenses. So who has the money to take on the cost of a new vehicle.

 

[flashfearless]

I just think the EB guys have hybrid envy.

If you follow the Car Edge guys on youtube who have access to the dealer numbers, you will see that the new car market is tumbling. Lots of reason why. Same for used cars.

Inventory is catching up. Some models have over 140 days of inventory. Mavericks are listed at end of 2023 as 10 days of inventory.

 

[C J Cox]

Glen Arm MD 21057. Carmax $25,500, Carvana $24,777 and driveway.com $22,500. They were the high 3.

Last night Carvana emailed a new offer, $24,292.

REVV post ended yesterday. Best offer from a Ford dealer in Bethesda MD $25,050.

The Maverick appeared on Carmax website this morning Slight markup over msrp

 

[C J Cox]

Now I know why the dealer declined to purchase the hybrid I sold to Carmax. Today they have 4-2024s listed for sale at $500 below msrp. Three hybrids and 1 EB.

https://www.plazaford.com/searchall.aspx?Model=Maverick

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