What happens when tuners realize the hybrid HP/TQ numbers?

[OWP]

That is insane. I assure you that Mavericks are amphibious, and with 4k towing you can pull 2 skiers.

So, now you go to the nearest lake and prove it doesn't work, I'll wait here.

There are several reasons I argued multiple times here. One is that I debate for sport, but if you've been here a while, you have seen me support dissenting ideas when they have merit. No one knows everything and I enjoy learning. But this is such a farcical dream to think the first post - that a Maverick hybrid is really 400 horsepower and just needs tuning to reach that - he might as well have claimed it can fly.

No one should try the various methods mentioned here by the op unless they want to die (the 320v system is very capable of killing a person untrained in proper maintenance), or burn up their battery or electrical motor, or set their truck on fire. But if the op is sure it can be done safely, by all means let's get that 400 hp.

Well something is insane. But lets use your example like a mature person.

I don't think it is amphibious, but if you try let us know how you did it.
I will now move on, if you insist its possible I will just watch, I'm not a sport debater or troll so I won't need to repeat my opinion over and over.
You may support dissenting ideas in other threads, maybe I've even seen it and commented with you. I have the memory of a goldfish, but you are standing out in this one for being kind of jerky about your replies.
And I'll take my own advice, I've said my piece and I won't need to repeat it over and over to make this thread more congested.

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[AutobahnSHO]

I'm not the one being attacked here, but I will butt in and ask: Why do people just need to disagree so loudly? Someone wants to discuss something and it turns into this immature "prove it" over and over again. If you don't agree then leave it at that, constantly arguing screams of some need for validation.
If discussion won't do and proof is needed so badly then let the guy who disagrees prove it doesn't work. Why make someone else do the experiment for you?

I think there is money left on the table as far as making a hybrid quicker, I have my doubts on how simple that is since I haven't looked into it since the first gen Prius.

Who was "attacking" anyone?
And how do you define "loud" from typed words?

OP made statements, people replied to him. His statements are confident in an opinion which many seem to disagree with (myself included).

All vehicles are a compromise between performance, cost, longevity.
The hybrid as-is strikes a really good balance of the latter 2, OP wants more performance. He seems to understand there is cost and longevity compromises, but also makes some claims that just don't make sense as far as how much performance is possible without crazy re-engineering cost.

 

[Cherokee]

It’s hard to just move on with no comments
This thread was interesting in spite if those that didn’t like it.

 

[heady]

That's all the thread was for, just an interesting bit of fun, and perhaps relate a bit of information about how DIY electric enthusiast projects are not really more difficult or really more expensive than most other auto enthusiast projects, just that it's a different set of interests and applied skills. Most EV platforms don't have bigger motors in them with significant headroom, hybrids are the notable exception, because they come with normal EV-sized motors connected to very small batteries, which is the limitation on them in factory form.

I've made it clear enough that I'm not personally interested in tuning much any more; I'm more of a value shopper like most hybrid buyers, and am totally happy with the factory power - this is true of most car buyers. What's interesting to me is the potential, and watching unique projects blossom - there's a lot more people that like to watch and read about cool things being built and tested than there are people that want to do them in their own garages. It's the excitement of any spectator activity, motorsports, athletics, concerts, etc.

I thought it would be fun to relate what DIY'ers do with other electric powertrains so people could see that things like adding or changing batteries, or customizing motor control is not outside the realm of normal hobbyist activities, I don't think most people are aware of that as there isn't much crosstalk with non-electric groups. I totally understand the incredulity, it's normal when you encounter new things. There's even less crossover into communities who don't have a subset of people doing their own mods, but instead buy off the shelf parts, canned tunes, because they are supported by an already robust aftermarket, making DIY auto projects an even more alien encounter.

 

[AutobahnSHO]

It’s hard to just move on with no comments
This thread was interesting in spite if those that didn’t like it.

Even if I disagree doesn't mean I don't Like thinking about things or getting other perspective.

Don't get me wrong, I discussed a couple years back adding an extra battery (for better fuel economy) or thinking about "suping up" the electric motors for more off the line torque in our beloved robot Mavs.

But even Subaru hasn't messed with the decades-old tried-and-true hybrid format with their new hybrid Forester:
-Spoiler it has a 1.1kWh battery, Atkinson 4banger, and 2x electric motors with eCVT just like Maverick and Prius....
-electric A/C compressor (like Mav)
-electric brake booster
-funny enough though the Subie has a 2.5L direct injected boxer motor (horizontally opposed) with 162hp at 5600RPMs.

What Sarah says is "game changer" is getting rid of the CVT and using eCVT. She rated this Forester 8.1 (of 10) but Maverick 4.9 out of 5.0 a couple years back...

 

[Cherokee]

funny enough though the Subie has a 2.5L direct injected boxer motor (horizontally opposed) with 162hp at 5600RPMs.

162 @ 5,600 rpm ! I don’t like motors that have power only at such high rpm’s. Even at that RPM that’s not a horse power number that I could live with.

 

[OWP]

Who was "attacking" anyone?
And how do you define "loud" from typed words?

OP made statements, people replied to him. His statements are confident in an opinion which many seem to disagree with (myself included).

All vehicles are a compromise between performance, cost, longevity.
The hybrid as-is strikes a really good balance of the latter 2, OP wants more performance. He seems to understand there is cost and longevity compromises, but also makes some claims that just don't make sense as far as how much performance is possible without crazy re-engineering cost.

Colini seemed to be attacking with the constant repeats of prove it and overall tone. Its not like in his response he disputed my wording. If he did and disagrees ok, to each his own. I already made my statement and repeating it over and over would be hypercritical on my part. I can say my peace and then drop it, most of the time

Loud is a metaphor for pushy, aggressive etc. If you don't agree with my wording that's cool too.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your assessment, based on my limited knowledge of how the hybrid system actually works. I would like to learn from someone actually diving into it, in a low cost just reading interesting forum posts kind of way.

 

[colinl]

I pretty much agree with the rest of your assessment, based on my limited knowledge of how the hybrid system actually works.

but he's said he doesn't think it will work.

It’s hard to just move on with no comments
This thread was interesting in spite if those that didn’t like it.

it's not at all that I 'didn't like it', I simply called out the BS for what it is. the OP's 'evidence' of other completely different electrical propulsion systems being modified or transplanted was not compelling at all to me. his tuning credentials dating to pre-OBD2 GM EFI did not impress me, either. sorry?

 

[Tiger Dude]

Why all the doubts?

Because they are adding things that cannot be directly added together.

People can sppend all the moeny they want on making their vehicle faster. but they can't get past the engineering of how ICE and electric motors work.

Almost always, it's cheaper to buy a faster vehicle than to try to make the one you bought faster. But don't let me stop you from throwing money at whatever you want.

 

[heady]

Because they are adding things that cannot be directly added together.

You can add them together directly, they are just factory specification, but you might not be able to get it all to the ground. You can get spec MG1+MG2 total output to the ground (this is just what these transaxles already do in a PHEV install in electric/engine off), and you can also get MG2+Engine total output to the ground without much fuss, MG2 is an independent "free agent". The output of those combinations is restricted by the programmed maximum torque in the factory programming, so in the Escape PHEV you don't get the fun of the full monty MG2+Engine at WOT.

Getting MG1+Mg2+Engine to the ground depends on the Epicyclic gear ratios of the planetary set. We could do all the homework in advance of how much could likely be combined output of MG1+Engine by calculating the torque ratios and angular velocities of the inputs and output using the equations here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicyclic_gearing

There are many other limitations that can and will be encountered along the way if someone went down the road on such a project; for example Ford may have economized the power stage of the TCM with smaller IGBTs for the hybrid model, so you'd have to change the power stage or use a PHEV TCM if you wanted to use more field current. If you can't flash the TCM, you'd have to use a third party motor controller or use a product like the OpenInverter logic board with the factory power stage to change the parameters. You can't do anything at all until you change the battery side of the equation. You also will not be able to reach the full Ford spec'd motor HP at the hybrid system voltage, even if you add current capacity. Thermal limitations, if you had enough battery capacity to ever reach them, are taken care the same way as they are on any motor - by regulating current based on motor temperature feedback with a PID loop - this is a built in function of all motor controllers.

People can sppend all the moeny they want on making their vehicle faster. but they can't get past the engineering of how ICE and electric motors work.

Almost always, it's cheaper to buy a faster vehicle than to try to make the one you bought faster. But don't let me stop you from throwing money at whatever you want.

AMEN!

 

[Escapologist]

funny enough though the Subie has a 2.5L direct injected boxer motor (horizontally opposed) with 162hp at 5600RPMs.

162 @ 5,600 rpm ! I don’t like motors that have power only at such high rpm’s. Even at that RPM that’s not a horse power number that I could live with.

It's what VVT does though, spreads out the torque and HP curve, because you could have HP and torque come in low or high depending on the fixed cam advance/retard on a conventional motor, now it can be the low end, the high end and everywhere in between. Gotta see the graph, but it probably doesn't mean it's got nothing at 3000.

 

[Cherokee]

It's what VVT does though, spreads out the torque and HP curve, because you could have HP and torque come in low or high depending on the fixed cam advance/retard on a conventional motor, now it can be the low end, the high end and everywhere in between. Gotta see the graph, but it probably doesn't mean it's got nothing at 3000.

I hear ya,
My eight speed gives me plenty of torque from a dead stop and nothing but smooth very quick acceleration all through the gears.
Having an eight speed lets 1,2,3 and 4th be a closer ratio and gives an excellent range of torque for acceleration.

My tranny settles into its second overdrive, 8th after I’m above sixty or so.
It is kinda weird having two overdrive gears.
I forget how long ago I had my first VVT engine but I’ve always like it.

My Ecoboost truly does feel like V-8 power of the 302’s, 318’s, and the 327’s of the 80’s

 

[AutobahnSHO]

You can add them together directly, they are just factory specification, but you might not be able to get it all to the ground. You can get spec MG1+MG2 total output to the ground (this is just what these transaxles already do in a PHEV install in electric/engine off), and you can also get MG2+Engine total output to the ground without much fuss, MG2 is an independent "free agent". The output of those combinations is restricted by the programmed maximum torque in the factory programming, so in the Escape PHEV you don't get the fun of the full monty MG2+Engine at WOT.

Getting MG1+Mg2+Engine to the ground depends on the Epicyclic gear ratios of the planetary set. We could do all the homework in advance of how much could likely be combined output of MG1+Engine by calculating the torque ratios and angular velocities of the inputs and output using the equations here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicyclic_gearing

There are many other limitations that can and will be encountered along the way if someone went down the road on such a project; for example Ford may have economized the power stage of the TCM with smaller IGBTs for the hybrid model, so you'd have to change the power stage or use a PHEV TCM if you wanted to use more field current. If you can't flash the TCM, you'd have to use a third party motor controller or use a product like the OpenInverter logic board with the factory power stage to change the parameters. You can't do anything at all until you change the battery side of the equation. You also will not be able to reach the full Ford spec'd motor HP at the hybrid system voltage, even if you add current capacity. Thermal limitations, if you had enough battery capacity to ever reach them, are taken care the same way as they are on any motor - by regulating current based on motor temperature feedback with a PID loop - this is a built in function of all motor controllers.

AMEN!

Dude. You missed the issue. Again.

Ford, Toyota, Subaru, etc... don't just push amazing power out of the electric motors with higher voltage because THEY WOULD BURN UP without adding a ton more cooling. Your entire first paragraph ignores this, again. Your very last sentence FINALLY remembers- Ford limits output to keep the motors alive.

ALL of your other day dreaming has to START with cooling, not conjecture about "how easy" it is to push more power through the wires to turn the gears connected to the wheels.

PLUS if you drop a Tesla battery pack in the Maverick bed you still have to cool that also.

 

[AutobahnSHO]

162 @ 5,600 rpm ! I don’t like motors that have power only at such high rpm’s. Even at that RPM that’s not a horse power number that I could live with.

That's PEAK horsepower, there's power lower as well.

 

[heady]

Dude. You missed the issue. Again.

Ford, Toyota, Subaru, etc... don't just push amazing power out of the electric motors with higher voltage because THEY WOULD BURN UP without adding a ton more cooling. Your entire first paragraph ignores this, again. Your very last sentence FINALLY remembers- Ford limits output to keep the motors alive.

Except they all do, because that's what is done in the PHEV application when the transaxle is a shared component between a PHEV and a hybrid, which it usually is . The PHEV applications run both higher voltage and current through the exact same motors for much longer duration/duty cycle. This is also why people take the transaxle out of Priuses and use them in full EV conversions with an OpenInverter/ZombieVerterVCU. The non-PHEV Prius Gen2 trans is used for about 93HP continuous and the Gen3 transaxle about 134hp in conversions - Those transaxles never put out that power in a factory Prius install, and also in no way are they at risk of burning up the motors, they've been running such conversions for many years.

Ford and Toyota limits the power for vehicle, and mostly battery, durability. Cooling is way less of a concern than you are imagining, the standard transaxles are more than well enough cooled for normal automotive use at the specificed and published design motor power as they are used in PHEV applications. Motors don't burn up if, and until, you disable the temperature feedback to your motor controller, or you get to the point of pushing insane currents.

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