Maverick Hybrid Climbed Mt Washington Today

[Phimosis]

Glad to hear it. I'm of the thinking that overheating is much less of a problem with disc brakes than the older drums.

Yes and…. With tow-haul mode (and possibly “L” mode, but I forget) if you brake and slow it down to, say 35 mph, it will then hold at 35 through a combination of down shifting, compression braking and automatic brake application. It will hold that speed until you apply the throttle to tell it that you want to go faster. So let’s say you use the throttle to speed back up to 45 mph, then let off the throttle. It will now hold 45 mph on the downhill slope and won’t let it go any faster than that.

This combination of techniques puts a lot less heat in the brakes than the old style of leaving it in drive and applying brakes when you feel like you are going too fast.

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[Dad]

Yes and…. With tow-haul mode (and possibly “L” mode, but I forget) if you brake and slow it down to, say 35 mph, it will then hold at 35 through a combination of down shifting, compression braking and automatic brake application. It will hold that speed until you apply the throttle to tell it that you want to go faster. So let’s say you use the throttle to speed back up to 45 mph, then let off the throttle. It will now hold 45 mph on the downhill slope and won’t let it go any faster than that.

This combination of techniques puts a lot less heat in the brakes than the old style of leaving it in drive and applying brakes when you feel like you are going too fast.

I wonder if anyone has used cruise control to the same effect.

 

[Phimosis]

I wonder if anyone has used cruise control to the same effect.

Unsure if anyone has tried it, but the result of using cruise control would not be good. The cruise control would apply brakes (I think), but it would not cause the transmission to down shift and use compression braking like the tow-haul mode or L mode does. The compression braking is the secret sauce keeping speeds down without putting too much heat into the brakes. And the computer figures it all out so that it keeps engine rpm’s no more than about 4,500.

 

[Dad]

Unsure if anyone has tried it, but the result of using cruise control would not be good. The cruise control would apply brakes (I think), but it would not cause the transmission to down shift and use compression braking like the tow-haul mode or L mode does. The compression braking is the secret sauce keeping speeds down without putting too much heat into the brakes. And the computer figures it all out so that it keeps engine rpm’s no more than about 4,500.

Good point. You're correct in that the ACC uses braking to adjust the speed whereas using L and tow/haul uses the engine and transmission. Totally different approach. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[vabchusa]

We did the Mt Washington trip in June this year.

 

[Bilbo_B]

Went to Mt. Washington last year before we bought the Maverick & took the cog railway up . Glad you had good weather. Ours was chilly, windy and cloudy.

 

[m5040]

I did the same trip with my 23 Lariat. Usually the engine braking is very good, however coming down Mt Washington, with the "L" selected, the trans still upshifted which then required continuous service brake usage. If the trans would have stayed in L, it would have worked well.

 

[The Real Maverick]

I did the same trip with my 23 Lariat. Usually the engine braking is very good, however coming down Mt Washington, with the "L" selected, the trans still upshifted which then required continuous service brake usage. If the trans would have stayed in L, it would have worked well.

Here's the kicker with the hybrids.

Going downhill, coasting or applying the brake, the traction motor will regenerate and send that power to the battery first, but the battery fills to the maximum allowed in about 1 mile of steep decent, or in 2-3 miles of gradual decent.

After this the traction motor STILL GENERATES WATTAGE but sends the power directly to the GENERATOR that consumes that wattage to SPIN the gasoline engine, throttle closed, without fuel.

Here's the kicker.... this does not work well at slow wheel speeds, but works great at high wheel speeds. Because the electrical-mechanical resistance is determined by how much wattage you are generating, and at slower speeds, less wattage.

Mt. Washington, if anything like Pike's Peak Colorado requires SLOW speeds due to TIGHT hairpin curves, no guard rails, and dirt/gravel surface. This is absolute worst case scenario and friction brake pads are going to have to do most of the work at under 25 mph. Best to stop at every turnout and let them cool.

 

[The Real Maverick]

If the trans would have stayed in L, it would have worked well.

Forgot to say, nothing mechanical changes when you press the "L" button. There are no shifting gears. It does not "stay in L" nor come out of L. Not really. Pressing the "L" button is just a computer command to regen as much as possible.

Those times you interpreted as it "upshifting" it wasn't. It was just getting to a speed point too slow for regeneration + engine brake to be effective. Those times you felt that pretend "upshift" I'm gonna bet you were under 25 mph, even more likely under 20 mph.

I don't know why the transition is so abrupt but I will agree, it is. Rather than gradually fade out, it gets to a point where the engine braking just "gives up" and gives the sensation of upshifting.

It's pretty rare in my 19 years experience specifically with Ford hybrids, but sometimes, rarely, it can cut off regeneration and engine brake to let the motor, or most likely to let the generator cool off. Just 30 to 60 seconds of "rest" is enough to cool the liquid cooled motors. But you'd get a warning message and/or MIL "Lamp" akin to power/performance reduced due to temperature. Assuming there were no messages or lamps, you simply were not traveling fast enough for engine braking to work.

Under 10 MPH you're gonna be all friction brakes, but probably not going fast enough to burn them up.

Over 25 MPH you will get good enging braking, more as speed increases.

In the 10-25 MPH zone is really a difficult to manage zone.

Hope that helps.

 

[m5040]

Those times you interpreted as it "upshifting" it wasn't. It was just getting to a speed point too slow for regeneration + engine brake to be effective. Those times you felt that pretend "upshift" I'm gonna bet you were under 25 mph, even more likely under 20 mph.

I don't know why the transition is so abrupt but I will agree, it is. Rather than gradually fade out, it gets to a point where the engine braking just "gives up" and gives the sensation of upshifting.

I usually drive Mt Washington with a RAM Cummins with a engine exhaust brake and 99% trip down is without using the service brakes. The Maverick started out doing very well and to me could have maintained speed if it didn't change the ratio. I have a Scan Gauge (but with 3 pages of data I didn't know what to watch for temp and to tell you the truth, I didn't even think it would generate problematic heat on a decent.)
I don't know where you are from or if you ever drove the Autoroad, but to me you can't safely negotiate the switch backs with opposing traffic at 20mph, so that means riding the brakes all the way down. A situation worse then a standard vehicle with auto trans in low.

 

[m5040]

Mt. Washington, if anything like Pike's Peak Colorado requires SLOW speeds due to TIGHT hairpin curves, no guard rails, and dirt/gravel surface. This is absolute worst case scenario and friction brake pads are going to have to do most of the work at under 25 mph. Best to stop at every turnout and let them cool.

Stopping to cool the brakes, to me, is going back to the 1960s and 70s vehicles. If what you say is correct, and it sounds like it is, they may end up banning the Maverick from these roads.

 

[The Real Maverick]

Stopping to cool the brakes, to me, is going back to the 1960s and 70s vehicles. If what you say is correct, and it sounds like it is, they may end up banning the Maverick from these roads.

All hybrids of this type will behave the same.

You made it A-Ok.

I don't foresee any vehicle banning.

 

[m5040]

I don't foresee any vehicle banning.

You don't foresee banning???? Technically they ARE ALREADY BANNED! The rules state that the transmission MUST be able to be LOCKED in 1st gear of low. They haven't yet realized Mavericks can't.

The Mt Washington regs:

SOME VEHICLES CANNOT BE PERMITTED ON THE AUTO ROAD

• Jaguar, Saturn and Sterling autos with automatic transmissions must show a “1” or “L” or “S” on the shifter to be allowed on the Auto Road. Transmissions showing an “S” must demonstrate that this shifter will allow the transmission to be locked into 1st gear.
• Model year 2009 and earlier Honda and Acura vehicles must meet the same requirements as described above.
• Model year 2010 and later Honda and Acura vehicles are all allowed regardless of transmission type.
• No trailers, RV’s, or motorhomes.
• No mopeds or scooters.
• No dual wheeled vehicles.
• No bicycles.

 

[2handsipper]

Forgot to say, nothing mechanical changes when you press the "L" button. There are no shifting gears. It does not "stay in L" nor come out of L. Not really. Pressing the "L" button is just a computer command to regen as much as possible.

Those times you interpreted as it "upshifting" it wasn't. It was just getting to a speed point too slow for regeneration + engine brake to be effective. Those times you felt that pretend "upshift" I'm gonna bet you were under 25 mph, even more likely under 20 mph.

I don't know why the transition is so abrupt but I will agree, it is. Rather than gradually fade out, it gets to a point where the engine braking just "gives up" and gives the sensation of upshifting.

It's pretty rare in my 19 years experience specifically with Ford hybrids, but sometimes, rarely, it can cut off regeneration and engine brake to let the motor, or most likely to let the generator cool off. Just 30 to 60 seconds of "rest" is enough to cool the liquid cooled motors. But you'd get a warning message and/or MIL "Lamp" akin to power/performance reduced due to temperature. Assuming there were no messages or lamps, you simply were not traveling fast enough for engine braking to work.

Under 10 MPH you're gonna be all friction brakes, but probably not going fast enough to burn them up.

Over 25 MPH you will get good enging braking, more as speed increases.

In the 10-25 MPH zone is really a difficult to manage zone.

Hope that helps.

If people had read the Maverick manual the L button is to be used when the CVT is in Neutral. Jeez um,!

 

[m5040]

If people had read the Maverick manual the L button is to be used when the CVT is in Neutral. Jeez um,!

It is also used for getting by the toll collector on the Autoroad. He makes sure your vehicle has a 1 or a L to select. He was satisfied when he seen it.

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