Use new Hybrid-specific 0w-20 oil? (And new oil filter is available)

[MaverickTopGun]

Fram Ultra Synthetic vs Mobil 1 screenshots from the video posted above. Worth noting that the Fram Ultra Synthetic in Fram’s product line is above the Titanium with 36 pleats. In this case number of pleats equates to increased surface area.

Pleat count is not the whole story. The media type matters more, as it turns out.

Hard to visualize. The key is what we mechanical engineers call "Depth Filtering", what Fram is doing by using a Double Layer of media, to snag dirt as it passes through.

Fram even manages to do Double Layer media without high pressure drops, proven by Ascent Filtration's independent testing & Fram's own in-house testing too.

As for Titanium vs. Ultra, Fram uses different media for those. They are both Double-Layer anyway.
I haven't seen pressure drop (flow resistance) info on the newest Ultra. Likely OK.

The Titanium shows up as the old-style Ultra in the Ascent Filtration tests and it does great.
Based on what data I have seen, the Titanium is favored for flow, efficiency, durability (screen-backed), and longevity since they don't use cellulose in it.

Back to Mobil1 products, their oil filter doesn't quite cut it as a premium thing.

Another bash on Mobil1 is that their silver-bottle basic 5w-30 failed to flow when cold! (Project Farm random test).
Bad Quality Control at the Mobil1 factory? Probably they forgot to de-wax the base oil, unforgivable.
So I'm no longer spending my money on any Mobil1 product. They did another unforgivable thing a few years ago. You almost never see these kinds of Quality Control failures at the big companies, strange at best.
Left to Right: SuperTech, SuperTech HighMileage, Mobil1, Mobil1 High Mileage, all 5w-30:

If you go for the "Hybrid oil" then use Valvoline's, not Mobil1.

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[MaverickTopGun]

Mobil 1 has a new Hybrid 0w-20 oil. They claim the formula handles contaminants better, which probably means it has a greater dose of dispersants to emulsify water better, and mix fuel into the oil better.
The Valvoline Hybrid-specific 0w-20 has similar claims.
Both brands of Hybrid oil have the right WSS- Ford specs, no issues there.

Just to follow up, turns out, this month, Amsoil came out with a Hybrid-specific motor oil too.
They explain what the difference is better than I did above:
https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/he_g3830.pdf

 

[Exranger]

I prefer the Mobil 1 oil filters to anything Fram makes.

Agreed. Tests prove Mobil one filters are really good. Oil too.

 

[MaverickTopGun]

Agreed. Tests prove Mobil one filters are really good. Oil too.

What tests? ISO 4548-12 shows filtering performance is mediocre, about average. 99%@30microns
Can you name one real test?

 

[Montana]

I'm curious how this would stack up against previous PF test leaders, like Amsoil, Redline and Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. I used Mobil 1 years ago but seeing Pennzoil UP beat everything but redline and Amsoil, I made the switch. Not their regular platinum line, the Ultra Platinum.

Not a fan of fram filters. Why not WIX XP?

 

[fishinmagician]

I used it because they had it as part of the sale. I will say all of the oil marketing gimmicks are getting out of hand. they had like 10 different versions of mobile1 synthetic

 

[MaverickTopGun]

I'm curious how this would stack up against previous PF test leaders, like Amsoil, Redline and Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. I used Mobil 1 years ago but seeing Pennzoil UP beat everything but redline and Amsoil, I made the switch. Not their regular platinum line, the Ultra Platinum.

"PF" meaning the Project Farm guy on youtube? Those tests are very limited in what they can tell you. Trust me, it takes a lot of real engineering tests (i.e., dexos1, MB 229.71, VW 508, SP/GF6A, DOZENS of tests inside each spec of all kinds in the engineering world) to prove a motor oil is decent.

Still, I think Pennzoil (SOPUS) is likely right when they claim Ultra Platinum is very good oil, not a bad choice probably. They have a very good engineering evaluation lab in Houston where they check what Infineum has given them. Should be fine.

Not a fan of fram filters. Why not WIX XP?

The Wix XP filters extremely poorly. Doesn't clean out the finer stuff. It's as if they made it as a racing oil filter.
ISO 4548-12 results are horrible. Ascent Filtration, a testing firm, published Wix XP results and found it even failed a USCAR-36 leak-through bubble test, not good.

Fram Ultra or Titanium perform the best, and don't have a lot of loose glue seen inside that could get sucked down the bypass valve.
If you don't like the Fram brand, go with "Microgard Select" oil filters, very well made, and probably filter well enough.

 

[MaverickTopGun]

I used it because they had it as part of the sale. I will say all of the oil marketing gimmicks are getting out of hand. they had like 10 different versions of mobile1 synthetic

I think the "Hybrid" oils (Mobil1, Valvoline, and now Amsoil has one) are really only good for when you short-trip a lot or a lot of very cold weather driving.

My '15 Ford C-Max hybrid I had would refuse to really warm up, obviously since the engine kept shutting down as I drove. I even got an OBD-II check engine light one time with an internal diagnostic code indicating it was taking too long to get warm. That was on a very cold day.

When oil takes a long time to warm up, water gets in, causing internal corrosion over time.

Compare to what some of the Marine boat outboard engine oils have, A TON more dispersants and emulsifiers to fight water in the oil.
The Hybrid oils might be using some of the same additives from Marine 4-stroke Engine oil.

So, not much short-tripping, or not much cold-weather driving,
------->NO NEED for the extra dispersants and water-rust inhibitors in the "Hybrid" oils.

 

[Montana]

"PF" meaning the Project Farm guy on youtube? Those tests are very limited in what they can tell you. Trust me, it takes a lot of real engineering tests (i.e., dexos1, MB 229.71, VW 508, SP/GF6A, DOZENS of tests inside each spec of all kinds in the engineering world) to prove a motor oil is decent.

Still, I think Pennzoil (SOPUS) is likely right when they claim Ultra Platinum is very good oil, not a bad choice probably. They have a very good engineering evaluation lab in Houston where they check what Infineum has given them. Should be fine.

The Wix XP filters extremely poorly. Doesn't clean out the finer stuff. It's as if they made it as a racing oil filter.
ISO 4548-12 results are horrible. Ascent Filtration, a testing firm, published Wix XP results and found it even failed a USCAR-36 leak-through bubble test, not good.

Fram Ultra or Titanium perform the best, and don't have a lot of loose glue seen inside that could get sucked down the bypass valve.
If you don't like the Fram brand, go with "Microgard Select" oil filters, very well made, and probably filter well enough.

Do you have a video comparing the filters? How do the WIX standard ones compare to their XP line and Fram etc etc. This is the first time I've seen someone mentioned Fram in a long time as being a quality filter. Most videos they get popped on due to their build quality. Something must have changed recently? The glue and median used to be their downfall.

And yes, PF tests are subjective in some ways but still good basic tests. I use if mainly for the additional additives and cold flow (Montana winter half the year). I believe Pennzoil pays for those certified results on their normal Platinum line up because they sell more of that oil. They don't pay for things like DEXOS on the Ultra Platinum because they sell less of that oil being slightly higher priced and not as available locally for most people (me, can't find it anywhere within a 130 mile radius). Those certificates are good but also cost money for the manufacturers to slap on the bottle. If I was a GM owner, I'd rethink my choice just to avoid any issues if a test should ever need to be made, but it does meet the standards for my EcoBoost, so I'm good! Bullet dodged because I definitely had an order in for a new Colorado before I picked up my Maverick lol.

Also, congrats on a decent oil thread that isn't "how often should I change". This is good and brings something new to the table for debate. I'm not a hybrid owner anymore but Im interested in seeing the testings performed on this new Hybrid stuff and if it's really what they are marketing it as. I 100% agree with your last post about the condensation and marine oil.

This is also the first forum I've seen a couple people mention motul 8100 for the Ecoboost. I have not dived that far into research as to why just yet.

 

[MaverickTopGun]

Do you have a video comparing the filters?

Search on Whip City Wrencher on youtube, or search into bobistheoilguy for quite a few people who enjoy cutting oil filters open to see Build Quality. It's enough to be a good enough sample size for quality estimations. Not perfect.

How do the WIX standard ones compare to their XP line and Fram etc etc.

Wix standard ones (and NapaGold clones) are generally OK, slightly better than average filtering performance, but it seems I can remember some sloppy glue cut-open views which doesn't make them my first choice.

"MicroGard Select" wins the Build Quality wars, if you want the prettiest filter inside. That is worth something.

As for Fram, the lower-tier ones aren't too bad, just not good enough for me.
Fram does make a premium line: Ultra, Endurance, and Titanium which are the ones to get. I think about 15 years ago their build quality was having issues. Not today for sure.

Just using an over-sized XG3600-type or FL400S can increase performance overall by itself.

If you still have questions, just go on bobistheoilguy.com and search for any comments by username ZeeOSix, the best expert on oil filters, and an engineer like myself. He really gets into it and is right 99% of the time.

This is also the first forum I've seen a couple people mention motul 8100 for the Ecoboost. I have not dived that far into research as to why just yet.

Motul 8100 is probably good stuff. I prefer any oil that is dual-rated with U.S. domestic specs (API SP) and any of the German engine specs (BMW, Merc, VW, Porsche, Audi).
Castrol Edge gold jug for that, at least in 0w-20 weight. The 5w-30 version probably uses the same additive package anyway. It's one of those "20,000 Mile" oils you see.

Pennzoi Ultra Platinum works though.

Ecoboosts have a deisel-like soot accumulation issue, so if I had that engine I'd use Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle Full Synthetic, or Amsoil Signature Series Max-Duty Synthetic Diesel Oil 5w-30, both of those carry dual ratings, gasoline and diesel engines. Fleets use those in mixed-engine fleet situations.
.... OR any BMW-branded or Mercedes-branded or VW-branded 5w-30 oil, from the dealership or that carries a German spec in a 5w30 weight, any brand. They are dual-rated for diesel and gasoline engines, and are API SP and ACEA as well. All LSPI-resistant except DO NOT use any ACEA A3/B4 type here, avoid those
So safe to use BMW LL-04, MB 229.52, VW 507 oil in a 5w30 weight only. Avoid A3/B4 which could have too much calcium and induce LSPI detonation events, possibly.

 

[Montana]

Search on Whip City Wrencher on youtube, or search into bobistheoilguy for quite a few people who enjoy cutting oil filters open to see Build Quality. It's enough to be a good enough sample size for quality estimations. Not perfect.

Wix standard ones (and NapaGold clones) are generally OK, slightly better than average filtering performance, but it seems I can remember some sloppy glue cut-open views which doesn't make them my first choice.

"MicroGard Select" wins the Build Quality wars, if you want the prettiest filter inside. That is worth something.

As for Fram, the lower-tier ones aren't too bad, just not good enough for me.
Fram does make a premium line: Ultra, Endurance, and Titanium which are the ones to get. I think about 15 years ago their build quality was having issues. Not today for sure.

Just using an over-sized XG3600-type or FL400S can increase performance overall by itself.

If you still have questions, just go on bobistheoilguy.com and search for any comments by username ZeeOSix, the best expert on oil filters, and an engineer like myself. He really gets into it and is right 99% of the time.



Motul 8100 is probably good stuff. I prefer any oil that is dual-rated with U.S. domestic specs (API SP) and any of the German engine specs (BMW, Merc, VW, Porsche, Audi).
Castrol Edge gold jug for that, at least in 0w-20 weight. The 5w-30 version probably uses the same additive package anyway. It's one of those "20,000 Mile" oils you see.

Pennzoi Ultra Platinum works though.

Ecoboosts have a deisel-like soot accumulation issue, so if I had that engine I'd use Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle Full Synthetic, or Amsoil Signature Series Max-Duty Synthetic Diesel Oil 5w-30, both of those carry dual ratings, gasoline and diesel engines. Fleets use those in mixed-engine fleet situations.
.... OR any BMW-branded or Mercedes-branded or VW-branded 5w-30 oil, from the dealership or that carries a German spec in a 5w30 weight, any brand. They are dual-rated for diesel and gasoline engines, and are API SP and ACEA as well. All LSPI-resistant except DO NOT use any ACEA A3/B4 type here, avoid those
So safe to use BMW LL-04, MB 229.52, VW 507 oil in a 5w30 weight only. Avoid A3/B4 which could have too much calcium and induce LSPI detonation events, possibly.

Hey I sent you a PM to avoid derailing the 0W-20 Hybrid oil thread here.

Thanks again for sharing!

 

[Nesser]

I think the "Hybrid" oils (Mobil1, Valvoline, and now Amsoil has one) are really only good for when you short-trip a lot or a lot of very cold weather driving.

My '15 Ford C-Max hybrid I had would refuse to really warm up, obviously since the engine kept shutting down as I drove. I even got an OBD-II check engine light one time with an internal diagnostic code indicating it was taking too long to get warm. That was on a very cold day.

When oil takes a long time to warm up, water gets in, causing internal corrosion over time.

Compare to what some of the Marine boat outboard engine oils have, A TON more dispersants and emulsifiers to fight water in the oil.
The Hybrid oils might be using some of the same additives from Marine 4-stroke Engine oil.

So, not much short-tripping, or not much cold-weather driving,
------->NO NEED for the extra dispersants and water-rust inhibitors in the "Hybrid" oils.

Short tripping distance is definitely extended by the hybrid. I haven't seen a quantitative number but one must exist somewhere. If oil changes can go ~2x as far for the hybrid because of all electric miles I guess you could say a short trip (3 miles) could be twice as far too (6 miles).

Oil temperatures below normal operating temps is a good definition of short tripping which lags behind the coolant temperature that the gauge shows. That means the thermostat could open but the oil temperature could still be below operating and never get fully hot for long enough to drive out any condensation or fuel dilution. Especially with the ICE off in all electric mode as often as possible. I will definitely be doing both short trips and cold weather driving.

I like this chart that shows the differentiators of where the chemistry has been targeted in the current AMSOIL offerings. I also like that AMSOIL got the new hybrid oil API licensed. Makes it an easy choice during the warranty period.

TLDR; A high quality 0W-20 oil can be better than a specially branded hybrid oil. Hybrids do have different - not really unique - operational challenges compared to conventional ICE's.

Full disclosure: I am an AMSOIL independent dealer sharing my opinion and understanding.

 

[MaverickTopGun]

Short tripping distance is definitely extended by the hybrid.

Full disclosure: I am an AMSOIL independent dealer sharing my opinion and understanding.

Great post!
Yes, my own experience a few years ago with a '15 Ford C-Max Hybrid, which has a similar hybrid set-up as our Maverick or a current Ford Escape Hybrid or a Prius, was that the oil temperature is just very slow to go up, causing a "water-stewing" effect over quite a distance, made much worse on cold days.

So a short trip in a hybrid, stop-n-go type drive cycle, the dang thing may never get up to the "ideal" 215 degF oil temperature to cook off water.

As for Amsoil, quality company.
They used to, and probably still do, work closely with Lubrizol, a popular additive package and testing company for a lot of their products.

For our Maverick Hybrids, maybe the BEST option is to go with either of the Amsoil 0w-20 german-engine rated oils: https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g3395.pdf
Those are a cut above all the other 0w-20's, except maybe the Signature Series 0w-20 of course.

Of course, and it bears repeating for the reader here:
If you DO NOT short trip your Hybrid (roughly 12 miles needed), then use Motorcraft or other low-tier minimum-performance standard 0w-20's, otherwise think of the specialty Hybrid Oils (any brand) or a german-spec (also SN+ or SP rated) 0w-20.

 

[Exranger]

What tests? ISO 4548-12 shows filtering performance is mediocre, about average. 99%@30microns
Can you name one real test?

Yes lots of tests. Google it, lots. Not just microns but flow too. Flow is very important for cooling. As well as the drainback valve. I’m saying it is a good filter, Not the best in the world. My experience is 6 years in a Mercedes dealer, wholesale parts and fleet service. They use Mobil one from the factory.

 

[Montana]

Yes lots of tests. Google it, lots. Not just microns but flow too. Flow is very important for cooling. As well as the drainback valve. I’m saying it is a good filter, Not the best in the world. My experience is 6 years in a Mercedes dealer, wholesale parts and fleet service. They use Mobil one from the factory.

That is actually a really good point.

If you take into consideration the airflow from swapping to something like K&N air filters, you are allowing a much larger amount of particles to enter vs. an OEM paper filter. Often times the increase in performance is so negligent, it would be a better idea to opt for better filtration. At least in a non racing scenario or even on a majority of vehicles that have not been tuned.

But you never see it mentioned in the oil filter. Of course you want the better filtration in that area but again, something like the WIX XP that does allow for a better flow would net a slightly better performance. So what is the acceptable amount or middle ground for an oil filter? Can there be too much restriction from basic off the shelf filters? My guess is no, but I'm no engineer either. My guess is anything between 20-30 microns is going to be just fine for your engine especially on a well maintained vehicle.

After some research I have to agree that the Fram Ultra lineup are very good filters. This is me breaking my old "Fram bad" mentality.

I just can't justify the price of Amsoil though. As much as I'd love to use it for any vehicle, it just costs too much.

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