I thought Ford was done with a small EV pickup? [⚠️ ADMIN WARNING: NO POLITICS]

[Snox801]

If you don’t think this is an insane deal they have or that it won’t drive up cost.
Here is a basic break down from stalantis
Starting wages of $30-$42 and hour?

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[Gonzo chris]

I was more sarcasm. The new UAW deal might as well be close. UAW workers have had far more than living wages for years.
Living in Michigan its insane how well they are paid for the work they do. And this was pre new contract.
Livable wage is such a dumb term anyway. So easy to slide that scale. The fact that people be me are able to drive over 2 hours to work everyday, west coast to east side of state. Have two 80k cars minimum, house in the water. All while working for only livable wages as they call it.
The UAW has ruined the big 3. We are no longer in a time when they are needed. They drive up the cost of cars and provide protection for lazy workers.

Did the UAW get greedy back in the day when they controlled the whole market? Of course that's what humans do, it's weird though when the CEO wants 50 million a year nobody accuses them of being greedy. But that's not what ruined them what ruined them was the horrible engineering and jumk they turned out from the '70s through the 80s. How many hours have you spent working on an assembly line in a UAW plant? According to the contract I saw they're getting a 25% raise by the end of 2028 so 25% less than that top wage of $40 per hour is $30 per hour I don't consider that and insanely high wage today.
If somebody can own two $80,000 cars, a vacation house on the water, and a primary home on $30 an hour that's some great real estate deal there either that or they're a financial genius. Where I live a lot of the houses were $10,000 when new in the 1950s now a lot of them are going for $500,000

 

[Mav_RICK]

We we are experiencing gasoline at a relatively low cost.
In my area it is just over $3 (sorry Hawaii sorry California).
As soon as there is it an issue/instability in the world and the gasoline goes again st 4 1/2 $5 all of a sudden the energy efficiency, electric vehicle and even the hybrid technology, that so many are ignoring, will become relevant. maybe Saudi Arabia will pull some game and cut production to increase oil cost to influence the Nov elections.

Instability around the world can cause anything to go up in price, including batteries. If it’s not being sourced and built here, you have a recipe for instability.

 

[NextTruck]

Let's let the Chinese lead us down the rabbit hole. They would love to see the demise of fossil fuels in the US(negative impact on national security). If they are taking the world lead (supposedly) on EV vehicles (EV's will keep the world from burning up, right) then why are they building coal fired power plants like crazy? That seems to be at odds with the EV push. And for us to compete (and consider a $25k) EV, it will likely need to be with Chinese parts, assembled in Mexico, in one of China's automobile plants they are building.

 

[Gonzo chris]

If you don’t think this is an insane deal they have or that it won’t drive up cost.
Here is a basic break down from stalantis
Starting wages of $30-$42 and hour?

I guess it depends where you live but I don't consider $30 an hour to be an extravagant wage. It's weird back in the fifties before massive automation and computerization has increased the productivity of the average American multiple times one parent could work and support a household into suburbs, college for the kids etc now both parents work at least one job to try to do that yet somehow the plebeians are all greedy as the CEOs make more and more. It's a new gilded age but the big money has convinced us all to not even look at them and just look at the people closer to us who have it a little bit better and nip at their heels.....
I know you were being a hyperbolic regarding the pension but people put that stuff out there and it starts getting repeated as fact. They don't have a pension and most 401ks the company matches 5% so at current top wage of $30 an hour that's approximately $63,000 wages a year which comes out to about $3,000 per year per employee at top rate in the 401k. Which is nowhere near $18,000 per car. At that calculation they would build one car a year for every 6 employees.....Companies do not pay that money out of their current bank account to a retired employee they put it in a fund whether it's a DB pension or a 401k with their paycheck and it is then managed as a fund by a professional and invested in the market.
Again it depends where you live but $18 an hour to work in a factory that might explain the quality of the vehicles The Big Three puts out a bit..... You get what you paid for my son who's 17 years old gets $16 an hour for his summer job..

 

[Gonzo chris]

Let's let the Chinese lead us down the rabbit hole. They would love to see the demise of fossil fuels in the US(negative impact on national security). If they are taking the world lead (supposedly) on EV vehicles (EV's will keep the world from burning up, right) then why are they building coal fired power plants like crazy? That seems to be at odds with the EV push. And for us to compete (and consider a $25k) EV, it will likely need to be with Chinese parts, assembled in Mexico, in one of China's automobile plants they are building.

It's not a rabbit hole you're kind of contradicting yourself. They are taking the world lead on EV vehicles. They are also building a lot of coal plants because they need the energy. They're not mutually exclusive they want to take over the industry and that's where the industry is going burying our head in the sand and saying we're just going to build one ton diesel trucks forever will put the US Auto industry out of business. China is building more coal plants but they are also leading the world in solar power. China, the world's biggest car market, and Europe are both pushing to go EV. The transition might not be happening as quickly as they thought but it's still happening. If you look it up you'll see actually lots of battery plants are being built in the United States due to the tax credit and rebate provisions in the ira. It's good to get the plants built here as they are expensive and not something to be closed on a whim. The reality is an EV is much cheaper to build except for the cost of the battery. Battery chemistry today is four different than it was 5 years ago in cars. Canada is starting to do a lot of mining for battery materials, if the price drops significantly then the car itself could easily be sold for 25k. Look at all the parts on an internal combustion drivetrain that would be out of there. An engine is far more complicated with hundreds if not thousands of moving parts electric motors are simple I know I've worked on them for 25 years and I have also rebuilt engines..
As for Mexico doesn't Ford already build products there and sell them in the United states?
I don't get the national security thing. Yes we produce more oil today than any country on Earth and more than we ever have before but we also produce all of our electricity. The demise of fossil fuels worldwide will hurt Saudi Arabia and Russia more than the United states.

 

[Scupking]

They say 25k but it will be 45k... The Maverick is now a 25k truck and no way an EV will be close.

 

[NextTruck]

Did the UAW get greedy back in the day when they controlled the whole market? Of course that's what humans do, it's weird though when the CEO wants 50 million a year nobody accuses them of being greedy. But that's not what ruined them what ruined them was the horrible engineering and jump they turned out from the '70s through the 80s. How many hours have you spent working on an assembly line in a UAW plant? According to the contract I saw they're getting a 25% raise by the end of 2028 so 25% less than that top wage of $40 per hour is $30 per hour I don't consider that and insanely high wage today.

And crazy inflation took a huge bite out of that $30 an hour wage too.

 

[AutobahnSHO]

I guess it depends where you live but I don't consider $30 an hour to be an extravagant wage. It's weird back in the fifties before massive automation and computerization has increased the productivity of the average American multiple times one parent could work and support a household into suburbs, college for the kids etc now both parents work at least one job to try to do that

Actually only the richest families sent kids to college in the 50s. People didn't have giant TVs, cellphones, video games, all kinds of other luxuries in the 50s. The 3bed house I live in was built in the 1970s and is LESS THAN HALF the size of the 'average' homes being built now. Most families in the world don't have one car, not to mention the American average of 2.

So do people really need 2 jobs? Or are they just living beyond their means?

 

[Gonzo chris]

Actually only the richest families sent kids to college in the 50s. People didn't have giant TVs, cellphones, video games, all kinds of other luxuries in the 50s. The 3bed house I live in was built in the 1970s and is LESS THAN HALF the size of the 'average' homes being built now. Most families in the world don't have one car, not to mention the American average of 2.

So do people really need 2 jobs? Or are they just living beyond their means?

Well there is some of that but the house I live in is modest as well. I make over $40 an hour, my wife makes significantly less more like mid twenties an hour, but we only work one job. My house is paid for, except for a small home equity loan, I realize this is probably TMI but just making a point. I also have a three-bedroom house. Yes there are a lot of people living beyond their means and technology has given us more TVs and made them cheaper but there still is a much larger Gap even at the big three between a UAW worker and the CEO compared to what they're used to be ,way way larger. Where I live the money I make is basically what you need if you want to each work one job and be able to see your family. I could have made more moving up in the ladder but I wanted to be able to pick my son up from elementary school everyday and spend time with him. Point is at least where I'm at you can't really do that on one wage starting out.

 

[NextTruck]

It's not a rabbit hole you're kind of contradicting yourself. They are taking the world lead on EV vehicles. They are also building a lot of coal plants because they need the energy. They're not mutually exclusive they want to take over the industry and that's where the industry is going burying our head in the sand and saying we're just going to build one ton diesel trucks forever will put the US Auto industry out of business. China is building more coal plants but they are also leading the world in solar power. China, the world's biggest car market, and Europe are both pushing to go EV. The transition might not be happening as quickly as they thought but it's still happening. If you look it up you'll see actually lots of battery plants are being built in the United States due to the tax credit and rebate provisions in the ira. It's good to get the plants built here as they are expensive and not something to be closed on a whim. The reality is an EV is much cheaper to build except for the cost of the battery. Battery chemistry today is four different than it was 5 years ago in cars. Canada is starting to do a lot of mining for battery materials, if the price drops significantly then the car itself could easily be sold for 25k. Look at all the parts on an internal combustion drivetrain that would be out of there. An engine is far more complicated with hundreds if not thousands of moving parts electric motors are simple I know I've worked on them for 25 years and I have also rebuilt engines..
As for Mexico doesn't Ford already build products there and sell them in the United states?
I don't get the national security thing. Yes we produce more oil today than any country on Earth and more than we ever have before but we also produce all of our electricity. The demise of fossil fuels worldwide will hurt Saudi Arabia and Russia more than the United states.

Per your prior post on another thread..."I hate internal combustion engines". Sums it up. Yea, crazy that we are following the Chinese on everything. No contradiction on my part. You are just not following logic. And apparently leading in solar is not cutting it, so they need to use coal at outrages rates. Will they be decommissioning all these plants in 5-10 years when solar really is the bomb?? Or will they still need them because of all of the electrification? What is their other green power source??

 

[Gonzo chris]

Per your prior post on another thread..."I hate internal combustion engines". Sums it up. Yea, crazy that we are following the Chinese on everything. No contradiction on my part. You are just not following logic. And apparently leading in solar is not cutting it, so they need to use coal at outrages rates. Will they be decommissioning all these plants in 5-10 years when solar really is the bomb?? Or will they still need them because of all of the electrification? What is their other green power source??

When did I ever say I hate internal combustion engines? You're either lying or mistaken. Listen if you want to be an old man and stick your head in the dirt that's fine the big three are going to become the Harley-Davidson of car makers selling a smaller and smaller piece of the pie just selling nostalgia to old people who are dying off. I have rebuilt engines to things like gtos, I love a good manual transmission etc so I have no idea what you're talking about I do not let my nostalgia though fog my logical thinking. Following the chinese? They are the largest car market on earth? And yes solar isn't cutting it because this may be a complicated concept for you but their current energy needs for 1.5 billion people making the world's junk is greater than they can achieve with their solar build out. You seem to think we should lag behind the Chinese I want to lead them. What do you think solar energy is fake news? Look there's this weird thing transitions don't happen overnight. Look at the amount of solar energy in the United States today compared to 20 years ago. Look at what percentage of new electricity that has come online in the United States in The last 5 years is solar compared to Fossil fuels. It seems like some of you guys think things were better back when you were better and that if you put your blinders on things won't change. Your recipe is to have the Chinese rule the world. I would rather beat them.
I'm not 5 years old it's not about what I like. Like I don't expect to get ice cream for dinner. I realize I have to eat some vegetables now and then. So while I would like to have a 400ci V8 that gets 5 mpg with gas at 20 cents a gallon, no emissions controls with no negative effect on the environment and the oil would never run out I realized that's not reality.

 

[Gonzo chris]

Per your prior post on another thread..."I hate internal combustion engines". Sums it up. Yea, crazy that we are following the Chinese on everything. No contradiction on my part. You are just not following logic. And apparently leading in solar is not cutting it, so they need to use coal at outrages rates. Will they be decommissioning all these plants in 5-10 years when solar really is the bomb?? Or will they still need them because of all of the electrification? What is their other green power source??

I believe hydro is China's other big one. Again, I'm not a fan of them. I don't want them to be leading the world. That's the point. As for solar or renewables as a whole, they did generate more electricity in the United States last year than coal. They're up to like 21% total. Wind is biggest in Texas Btw. The only source that was higher than renewables was natural gas. Nuclear was 19%.

 

[HistoryGuy]

When did I ever say I hate internal combustion engines? You're either lying or mistaken. Listen if you want to be an old man and stick your head in the dirt that's fine the big three are going to become the Harley-Davidson of car makers selling a smaller and smaller piece of the pie just selling nostalgia to old people who are dying off. I have rebuilt engines to things like gtos, I love a good manual transmission etc so I have no idea what you're talking about I do not let my nostalgia though fog my logical thinking. Following the chinese? They are the largest car market on earth? And yes solar isn't cutting it because this may be a complicated concept for you but their current energy needs for 1.5 billion people making the world's junk is greater than they can achieve with their solar build out. You seem to think we should lag behind the Chinese I want to lead them. What do you think solar energy is fake news? Look there's this weird thing transitions don't happen overnight. Look at the amount of solar energy in the United States today compared to 20 years ago. Look at what percentage of new electricity that has come online in the United States in The last 5 years is solar compared to Fossil fuels. It seems like some of you guys think things were better back when you were better and that if you put your blinders on things won't change. Your recipe is to have the Chinese rule the world. I would rather beat them.
I'm not 5 years old it's not about what I like. Like I don't expect to get ice cream for dinner. I realize I have to eat some vegetables now and then. So while I would like to have a 400ci V8 that gets 5 mpg with gas at 20 cents a gallon, no emissions controls with no negative effect on the environment and the oil would never run out I realized that's not reality.

It may take a while for a low priced small ev truck. But if it happens, I'm in. I currently have a small ev (Leaf) and a Maverick hybrid. This would combine the functions of two vehicles into one. Not holding my breath, but looking forward to how it plays out.

 

[Gonzo chris]

It may take a while for a low priced small ev truck. But if it happens, I'm in. I currently have a small ev (Leaf) and a Maverick hybrid. This would combine the functions of two vehicles into one. Not holding my breath, but looking forward to how it plays out.

Yeah I don't see it happening soon either as Ford is selling every Maverick they can make. Seems like it would be a good vehicle for it if you don't tow anything long distances or generally do long trips regularly. I could see it with the motor in the front and back for AWD, a decent size frunk....

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